There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

it’s because ‘sovereignty’ actually equates to ‘Britishness’

No, it's because it equates to Englishness.

I don’t think it’s just England, otherwise no one in Scotland, Wales and NI would be hell bent on leaving.

It’s nationalism in general.

I agree OP. Tunnel vision is right. I’m not sure what they think will improve in their lives if we leave that they are so blinkered. 3 years on, I’m still waiting for any kind of response to this question, despite asking politely and not accusing people of being thick/racist etc, so not sure I’ll ever get one now.

Further, any Tory party members who would sacrifice the Union for Brexit should resign their membership of the conservative and unionist party, as they are clearly not aligned with its values.

I would still say that it was predominantly Englishness.

Nah, just twatishness! 😂

Persuade 'Leavers' of what?

I don't:
Read the DM
Do Facebook
Know what 'Leave Means Leave' is
Believe in 'sovereignty'

I do think/hope for:
A reduction in the UK carbon footprint
less unnecessary food transportation more seasonal, local food eaten.
Redundant fishdocks and shipyards regenerated into multi-use centres - smaller shipyards building smaller boats for a wider range of uses, from fishing boats to luxury yachts; adjacent to fishdocks landing the 'sustainable' catch of the day, creating real permanent local employment.

Brownfield sites turned into 'plastic' recycling and manufacturing factories - reducing the need to ship out to Asia (and environmental mayhem) and creating employment.

The rise in the minimal wage and a reduction in the use of zero-hours contracts for the low-paid. Business will pay as low as they can as long as they have an unlimited supply.

Hundreds more suggestions - many of which could have happened whilst the UK remained in the EU....but didn't.

So, I'll take my olden, Greeny, Socialistica, entreprenerious, travellistic ways and go with this crest of change...

Persuade me of what? Que....?

Hundreds more suggestions - many of which could have happened whilst the UK remained in the EU....but didn't.

Do you think they’re more likely to happen once we’ve left?

Yes - Mrs - I do. The increase in Local Political change away form the mainstream and towards local representation increases that.

Parliament is hell-bent on self-destruct - but similar to the Cold War I don't think they will, if they do at least no one will die; the worst is they turn the Palace of Westminster into a Luxury Hotel.

What is undeniable is that remainers have been spectacularly unsuccessful in convincing a majority that remain is the best option. This in spite of our free press, personal freedom of speech, access to expert analysis, a relative balance of power in the hoc, plenty of time over the past three years for debate, balanced media, and the most important ace of all, having ‘right’ on their side. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that if it’s a failure, it is a collective one.

Well hopefully for all our sakes that will come to pass hate. I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism especially as there seems to be a shift to the right in society just now but I guess we’ll see.

It's not Englishness! I'm English and I can't stand the insular, negative, small mindedness of the Farage-supporting brigade. It's not in my name.

There is also an Englishness that's about tolerance and acceptance of others' point of view. It's absolutely being drowned out by the other side. But there are plenty of Brian Coxes (fantastic on Twitter btw) alongside the Nigel Farages.

Having said that, I'm not quite sure why there are quite so many English people that fall for all the fake news. Maybe it's much of the media who've been peddling lies about the EU for decades. I also think the predominantly older generation who are so entrenched were very much influenced by the Thatcher years. She was all about Britain being a sovereign nation, suspicion of foreigners, winning wars, mistrust of those EU swindlers that tried to get one over on us.

Subsequent conservative PMs have had to pay lip service to the more right wing of their party, so have been muted in their support of the EU.

It's been a drip, drip, drip. Meanwhile people have been encouraged to believe that any problems they have: poor schools, no jobs, no decent housing stock, is down to Jonny foreigner rather than down to austerity, successive government decisions and social inequality.

That's the hard problem, that politicians can't solve easily. So yeah, just blame, you know, those faceless bureaucrats in Brussels, that actually don't control any of those things!!!

Yes to all of those things @Overmaars. The negativity in the media towards the EU, blaming the EU for everything wrong with the country and a distinct lack of knowledge about how the EU works and how it benefits us have all led us to this point. All people have heard for years is they take all our money, they have interfere in our laws and they send us immigrants.

Having lived and worked in other European countries, I have always found the negativity towards the EU here quite strange. It is not perfect by any means but there has never been any challenge to this narrative which has prevailed for years. Even now Raab is already sewing the seed saying that if we leave with no deal this will be the EUs fault.

The problem is, for all Hate's good intentions, leaving our closest trading partner is hardly likely to reduce our carbon footprint. Only an idiot would think that importing from further afield by air is somehow "greener" than by boat/train from the nearby.

The rest is simply unicorns, based on what successive Westminster governments have shown. We're more likely to get her wishlist on the guidance of the Eu quite frankly.

The "Lexiter" argument has been so comprehensively debunked, I'm amazed that anyone is still trying to peddle it!

A lot of good things there HateIs.
And the EU is stopping us doing exactly which of them?

Let's go through them:
A reduction in the UK carbon footprint
Working towards that in terms of phasing out coal fired power stations, but Heathrow Airport expansion? In what way has the EU promoted this?

less unnecessary food transportation more seasonal, local food eaten.
The answer here is partly in your own hands. The supermarkets tell us that this is what consumers want. If consumers tell them that they want local produce or vote with their feet and go to farm shops etc. they might begin to get the message.

Redundant fishdocks and shipyards regenerated into multi-use centres - smaller shipyards building smaller boats for a wider range of uses, from fishing boats to luxury yachts; adjacent to fishdocks landing the 'sustainable' catch of the day, creating real permanent local employment.
Yes, this is where some funding could be jolly useful. This would have been the sort of thing helped along by EU funding, which conveniently meant that Westminster didn't bother, not that the EU stopped them.

Brownfield sites turned into 'plastic' recycling and manufacturing factories - reducing the need to ship out to Asia (and environmental mayhem) and creating employment.
And the EU stops us doing that now by...?

The rise in the minimal wage and a reduction in the use of zero-hours contracts for the low-paid. Business will pay as low as they can as long as they have an unlimited supply.
Zero hours contracts don't happen Germany, which is in the EU so can't be an EU policy. Workers are more valued. At one time some UK employers appreciated this.

Hundreds more suggestions - many of which could have happened whilst the UK remained in the EU....but didn't.

Most of which could happen NOW if the will to do them was there. And if Governments were willing to find the money for other things than tax cuts for the already wealthy, or bungs to the DUP.

Yes Backintime it's scary. Since many of our workers' rights and our consumer protection and pollution regulations have been brought in BECAUSE of the EU. Newspapers talk about reducing red tape and bureaucracy but these are the kind of things they're talking about.

Meanwhile useless bureaucracy, like having to fill in customs' forms and pay trade tariffs with EU countries may increase exponentially. You couldn't make it up,

I genuinely think that they are good suggestions HateIs, but the fishdocks and shipyard regenerations are much more likely to happen with EU funding than without.

But you know what? UK Governments or Local Authorities have to apply for the funding - there isn't some Central EU body which says 'Grimsby needs to have its fishdock converted'. The will has to be there locally or maybe nationally and then people start scouring around for funding.

The day after the Referendum I recall that Cornwall County Council asked if Westminster would guarantee to replace the EU funding they would be losing. To be politely told No.

HateIsNotGood
As others have already said the intentions in your list are great, but it needs GREATER integration to make most of those happen.
The world will ALWAYS find the cheapest and shabbiest ways of doing things without some taking a stand and forcing change and improvement. I think it was BMW who deliberately stamped identification of the types of plastics used on their car parts possibly 30 or more years ago, so that when it came to recycling, they can be sorted and recycled appropriately because 'plastics' are not all the same and require different processes. It cost them a little more to do this but in it's tiny way a step forward.

{But you know what? UK Governments or Local Authorities have to apply for the funding}

So Farage, rather than bunking off and being an arse SHOULD have been putting forward constructive proposals, and maybe some fishing fleets, the smaller scale boats, could have taken on an alternative function. Maybe subsidised to take groups of line fishermen out on a daily basis more as 'recreation/sport' rather than attempting to retain market share against the newer more developed vessels.
Smaller scale 'entrepreneurial' stuff the UK can do and do it well given support, but for many years large scale manufacturing has gone to China and elsewhere. Stamping and screaming won't being it back.

{Brownfield sites turned into 'plastic' recycling and manufacturing factories - reducing the need to ship out to Asia (and environmental mayhem) and creating employment.}

China and elsewhere are already getting some of the message about this, they are rejecting the crap from the USA and Europe. Part of this will be down to the EU insisting that goods coming to the EU have been made in a 'sustainable' or environmentally friendly way. Of course it has to be carrot rather than stick and ultimately China can just say 'up yours' when it is wealthy enough to consume all it makes. The planet will truly be hammered when every 'poor' Chinese family 'expects' to have 2 children, an individual house and a car like an 'average' Westerner'.

Well said Peregrina! I like your intentions Hate, but its all pipe-dreaming. Under a Tory government without directives from the EU, none of those things you mentioned will come to fruition.

Megan - I don't view our media as balanced at all. If anything I think right-wing views are becoming so common-place that people actually view them as centrist and moderate. Anything to the left of that is reported as 'far-left'. Plus as PP said, our right-wing rags, of which there are many, have blamed the EU for decades for everything, rather than looking closer to home.

Talking of Farage bunking off, my DB did manage to find and EU law which the UK had implemented which could have been implemented better in the UK. I think it was something to do with a working time directive. DB did say that industry experts (we've had enough of those) did make suggestions, but were ignored. It was a case of the Government not being bothered to engage with the proposed legislation and say, 'this could be improved', which has been very much a Tory stance since 2010.

Then of course there are the rules when the UK decides to add unnecessary bits, but blames the EU.

IMO much of what HateIs would like to see could have been started a decade ago if the Tories hadn't been busy fighting with each other. I think we would also find that the suggestions would not be palatable to the Eurosceptic wing anyway - it costs, and they are driven by making as much money for themselves as possible.

{IMO much of what HateIs would like to see could have been started a decade ago if the Tories hadn't been busy fighting with each other}

This is part of my points on this. With the best will ever, the UK cannot take on mass production in an industrial sense, it simply hasn't the resources. Smarter operators would have identified this and come up with a 'plan B'. I expect many in industry did actually think this, but it needs governmental input to make the 'business environment' more suitable, whether it be trade deals 'en masse' or welfare and infrastructure.

@HateIsNotGood
I agree with others and like your wish list, you acknowledge yourself that all of those things are already within the power of our own government though so with respect, I do struggle to see your point with them. IMO even if we couldn't do any of those things as part of the EU, directly because of EU rules, I don't think any of them are worth risking the peace in NI or the division Brexit has created.

Thank you for answering as well Hateis and for being honest that the EU isn't to blame for the things you're listed.

For what it's worth I have met two people with genuine and real reasons they voted Leave. One woman I met voted Leave because she wanted to end live animal exports, she knew that even outside of the EU it's unlikely the government would ban this but thought there was no chance the practice would be banned with us inside the EU. She though this chance was worth the cost of Brexit.

The other person was a farmer, he wanted to replace his hedgerows with stock fences. The hedgerows involved a lot of maintenance, and cut his fields in two. Again he thought after Brexit there was little chance the UK government would change the law on this but that there was more chance of a law change outside of the EU. I do wonder what he thinks of Brexit now and if he's seen the proposed tariff schedules on his lamb. His business is going to be fucked.

My question to that farmer KenDodd would be; "are you sure this is EU legislation, or is this an extra obligation imposed by the UK Government?"

I could see that he might be right in that if the Americans have stock fences then that will be the way the UK would go, except that his farm might then have gone under.

One woman I met voted Leave because she wanted to end live animal exports, she knew that even outside of the EU it's unlikely the government would ban this but thought there was no chance the practice would be banned with us inside the EU. She though this chance was worth the cost of Brexit.

The cost of Brexit includes potential disruption to medical supplies and treatments but that’s fine if a few animals have a better trip before they are slaughtered 🤔

I despair.