There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

backyard after 3 years of really trying to understand what this is all for, I’ve given up.

There are no answers that make this worthwhile.

So now I don’t give a shit what happens - I just really hope it affects those who chose it the most.

Why would you presume to show such an unhealthily controlling interest in the political opinions of others, of whom you speak pejoratively, and in a lumpen mass as ‘they all’?*

I can answer that question with ease. Because all the vocal leavers on the Leave pages ALL repeat the same things. If their was one that stood out as saying something different to the rest, that would be rather remarkable indeed. If you don't believe me, wander over to the Leave pages of Facebook and tell me which individual stands out to you as having a different reason to the rest.

There*

And @Backyard99 I do not wish to control anyone, nor even argue or debate with anyone.

'They all' are a lumpen mass, based on the lump of leavers comments I have read on Facebook. I cannot differentiate Joe Bloggs opinion from John Smith's as there seems to be no variation. 'They' would probably say the same about us Remainers, eg, there may not be a great difference between my reasons for wanting to Remain and Peregrinas or Bellini's etc.

I haven't called anyone thick or racist. I have pointed out that theres no point in arguing because it gives Leavers ammunition. Christ, even when I'm not arguing, you've just accused me of calling people thick and racist

I took Anna's points on board with intrigue, I didn't even attempt to argue with her(?), I actually just asked for her thoughts.

So please spare me the pep talk, I don't think name calling or online mud slinging is the answer.

I'm looking forward to 'leavers' whipping themselves into a meringue when the unicorns don't arrive.
I am however greatly saddened that so many who don't want to Brexit will be badly affected for many years.

It is exactly this attitude that would make me vote leave in another referendum

This is a part of the human psyche I admit, I will never understand.

@Backyard99 does that mean you voted Remain in 2016, but if someone refers to you as 'they all' it would make you vote differently in another referendum?

Or do you mean you voted Leave in 2016, and being referred to as 'they all' further entrances your position?

I'm genuinely fascinated. I think mainly because no amount of someone referring to me as 'they all' could sway me from my principles.

I'm intrigued by this comment.

Entrenches*

We had one thread a few months back where a Leaver went on and on 'I know you will call me thick and racist'. The only person who did was the poster herself.

I really want Leavers to tell me what benefits they expect to wake up to when we are out of the EU in a reasonably short time say 3 years.

Let's start with the NHS. Will all the local hospitals be well equipped and well staffed?

What else? Laws. What new law that we can't make now because of the EU, is likely to benefit the average family?

@closertotheheart

Not read all of thread but i both agree and disagree with your comment.

I agree there’s no point in trying to persuade committed Brexiteers.

However, I believe there’s a reasonably sized group who don’t really care either way and “just want it over”, who believe that a no-deal “clean-break” Brexit would do just that. Of course this “clean break” is a massive lie peddled by the Faragists and needs exposing. Remainer politicians need to tackle this...

I believe the best way forward would be for the LibDems/Greens/SNP/PC etc to commit to revoke A50 if they can form a Government and more than 50% of people vote for remain parties in the likely autumn election (and only go for a referendum if not).

It may seem a bold unattainable pledge, but this such a bold move is needed I believe. If we are defeatist and believe that Remain parties have no hope of forming a Government, we are wasting our time and may just brace ourselves for no-deal.

Remain parties got 40% in the EU elections - way up on where the polls were only a month before, and we’ll up on the 34% going to BP and UKIP. If Remainers are to prevail, they must become the natural home of the “lets just get it over with” brigade, as currently they’re fodder for Farage’s propaganda!

{I believe the best way forward would be for the LibDems/Greens/SNP/PC etc to commit to revoke A50}
So why haven't they got organised and started shouting about this yet?

The organisation is happening behind the scenes but there is still a long way to go. I would like to see moderate Labour MPs join also. There then would be enough support to revoke A50. This must be done IMO with charging the Leavers to prepare a proper plan. This could be cross party - put Hoey in charge of fishing quotas. How will she get the quotas sold to the Dutch back and at what price? And so on.

I agree we have to tackle the "let's just get it over with it" brigade. As I mentioned before I have a friend who was Remain and thinks a Leave vote now would achieve this. So they need to be appraised of the fact that the easiest deals in history won't happen, but more likely we will have seven to ten years more like the last three.

Missed a bit out - the proper plan would be for the Leave MPs to prepare to bring the Brexit issue back when the plan was prepared. Not before.

Every single brexiteer/erg fucker in parliament should be given a job in making Brexit a success (ha!)

No soundbites, xenophobic comments, racism...some actual work and effort.

I would love to see A50 revoked in an ideal world. But I am leaning towards Bellini's pov that the best outcome at this stage would be some sort of halfway happy, I.e. leave on WA terms. It wont satisfy Remainers and it certainly wont satisfy the leave camp but.... how else do you bridge two completely opposing sides?

It's like trying to get two pieces of a puzzle together that don't fit properly. There needs to be a way of adjoining the two.

So why haven't they got organised and started shouting about this yet?

Good question... I sincerely hope that @Peregrina is right and they are. The LibDem leadership contest won’t be helping though.

There’s also the “respect the referendum” remainers turned leavers. This group comprised most remainers, including myself, until quite recently. A GE which was also, in effect, a referendum may sway a number of these.

Relatively small gains could male a big difference. At the moment, “Leave” has pretty much a monopoly on “get it over with/don’t really care about Brexit” voters.... Say they make up 10% of the vote... if 1 in 3 were persuaded that “Revoke” via a Remainer vote was the route to “Brexit freedom” and the LibDem etc vote went up by 3%, that would easily lead to 30-40 seats in a close fought campaign that could make all the difference!

But I am leaning towards Bellini's pov that the best outcome at this stage would be some sort of halfway happy, I.e. leave on WA terms

That was my position until the 3rd WA vote failed... I just don’t see that as viable via any credible route any more - it’s do or die now - No-deal or Revoke (albeit that this may come via a referendum and no-deal would end up in a deal eventually after we’ve been dragged through the shit)

There is zero point in "debating" Brexit now - positions have become too entrenched.

My experience of family members who are Brexiters is that you can't discuss it at all. Last time I saw my father he was talking about how marvellous it was that a young florist friend could have flowers from the Netherlands on display in her shop within 24 hours of picking. And in the next breath he was telling me that we should leave the EU without a deal. How do you even start to have a discussion on that basis? Of course he doesn't want to trash the young florist's business model - but of course that is exactly what no deal would do.

My father's not stupid: he had a very long career as a banking consultant and despite a stroke he's still reasonably sharp. But Brexit is a complete blind spot for him. And he's a "soft leaver" who three years ago claimed to want a Norway-style Brexit! Radicalisation isn't too strong a word.

And I wouldn’t put too much store in opinion polls at the mo. Many natural Tories and Labour voters will be continuing to give their parties the benefit of the doubt, and many aren’t as engaged in Brexit as we are so haven’t fully factored that in to their voting intention.

An autumn GE will be the Brexit Election - it will be utterly dominated by it.. and I expect Labour, in particular, to do very badly compared to their current polling position as they will continue to be hugely divided and their votes will peel
off towards Brexit and Remain parties in all areas that are potentially competitive.

As for the Tories, i expect the no-dealer rump will likely do a deal with the Brexit Party leading to Moderate Tories deserting en masse (albeit they are in a minority).

In this environment, I expect the LibDems and Greens to considerably better than their current polls. They just need to get their act together and work in partnership.

Exactly Misti, but that what I find all so infuriating with the Brexiters. They wont budge an inch on their position, there is no compromise. It's all talk of sovereignty and WTO and no idea what that really means.

Thing is, apart from my workplace and most of my family, I am surrounded by Leavers. I see them everyday and know how strongly they feel. Or, at least felt. So they will either realise they have been played for suckers and be, at best, disillusioned or, at worst, angry. Or they will become more belligerent in their BeLeaving. Or they will compromise. Or they will have a change of heart.
I don't feel sorry for them anymore. I feel sorry for the rest of us having to wait to see which way the ill wind blows.

You can make money on currency movements. Anyone can. You have to be resourceful and adaptable to survive.

It is immoral in my opinion to import nhs staff into this country to save money and deprive their country of origin where they were trained their benefit.

It is also mathematically unsustainable.

We should be preserving our farmland and not building houses on it. We will need this land in the forthcoming global extinction period.

The insect population in the uk has collapsed.

And this is the EUs fault because...

I don't think the LibDem leadership contest makes much difference to liaising with other parties. At the moment we are working on forging links at the Local level.

At what stage will the mandate from a GE trump the mandate from the Referendum? Or will it only do so if there is a clear winning side? It ought to have done last time, but I assume the hung Parliament put paid to that, and the Will of the People was justified by "80% of people voted for parties which supported Brexit". So although Labour did badly in Local and Euro elections, I think they will still have a fair amount of support and they need to be pushed off the fence and smartish.

If Labour stays on the Fence and the Tories/Brexit party get the same vote share or seat share as Remain parties then it is only likely to prolong the stalemate.

At what stage will the mandate from a GE trump the mandate from the Referendum?

It can’t be less than 50% of voters supporting a party that was committed to work to revoke A50.... Anything less would rightly be seen as undemocratic, and much as i would like us to revoke, I couldn’t support it.

You can make money on currency movements. Anyone can. You have to be resourceful and adaptable to survive.

Only if you have some money in the first place. So fat chance for people being forced to rely on food banks.

It is immoral in my opinion to import nhs staff into this country to save money and deprive their country of origin where they were trained their benefit.

Agreed. What has stopped us doing this for the last 70 years? I will repeat 70 years. We have always relied on importing staff - very often from the Indian sub continent. People who could use those staff themselves. We ought to be in a position to export our staff to them. What stops us? The political will has not been there. Don't expect it to be there if Hunt gets to become PM.