There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

Nothing, but when I am in my 70's or 80s I can't see myself voting for what is better for others in preference to what I think is better for myself.
This statement shocks me. As a parent, isn't the entire focus of your life about making your children's lives better than yours were? That thought drives pretty much everything I have done ever since becoming a parent 21 years ago and I can't imagine that will change when it comes to grandchildren. What sort of people do you all know who could think like that?

{What sort of people do you all know who could think like that?}
Leavers, or at least some of them.

It's a very selfish viewpoint. Hardly surprising since they voted because of the EU meddling and immigration. Absolutely disgusting attitude.

{because of the EU meddling}
I would point out that the UK is part of the EU but (closer) you already know that and Leavers feel the need to be 'persecuted'.

The day after the referendum my parents went for a walk. A woman approached them and said "isn't it great, we're leaving the EU?"

My dad said "no it wasnt", to which she huffily retorted "well I voted for my grandchildren". He said "well I voted for mine". He was completely baffled by the logic of this woman. So stripping your kids and grandkids rights is altruistic is it?

I note that HateIsNotGood has not yet come back to tell us why voting to leave the EU was a vote for Peace.

A woman approached them and said "isn't it great, we're leaving the EU?"

A useful test for Leavers who hated the EU so much that they wanted out even at the cost of wrecking our own country would have been to ask:

Name all the Countries of the EU.
Supplementary questions would be, who were the original countries?
When did the UK join, and which other countries joined at the same time?
Who were the last countries to join?

I bet you that 90% of those crowing about isn't it wonderful, we are leaving the EU would have been unable to answer the questions, not even the first.

Definitely not the first question, what I meant there were who were the original members. Googling not allowed for the original six. Permissible for later countries.

No point asking them anything peregrina. They hate fact, blame everyone else for the state of the world and are too prejudiced to see the merit of the being a member.

5 years ago I bet they wouldn't have even given the EU a second thought. Unless they were a Kipper I guess.

5 years ago I bet they wouldn't have even given the EU a second thought. Unless they were a Kipper I guess.

Even then it wasn’t actually about the EU. It’s about all foreigners.

Evidenced by the recent case where a man was fined for telling a black woman she’d be sent home once we leave the EU

news.sky.com/story/pensioner-fined-for-telling-black-woman-when-brexit-comes-you-will-be-gone-11752694

No point asking them anything peregrina.
5 years ago I bet they wouldn't have even given the EU a second thought.

That would be what I was trying to tease out - if they don't know which countries are in the EU then how do they know what exactly they are voting against?

Theres a lot of that about Bear. Brexit has lifted the lid on it and emboldened racists.

And doesn't that stupid prick in the article look like a fine upstanding pillar of community. Calling a woman the N-word. Wonder hes ever done for his country to make him so superior . Morals of an alley cat.

Leavers, or at least some of them.

There's just no logic to statements like this. Of course leavers believe they are doing the best for their children just as remainers do.

The OP says there is no point talking to leavers, but if you make this board into an echo chamber so you can huddle together with your like minded remainers and feel a bit less alone at the expense of sending some nastiness their way, you will only alienate people. If you don't want to bear some shared responsibility for the disaster that is about to happen, engage positively with people. Polarisation is the problem now, and posts like that will only exacerbate it.

How does one engage positively with a leaver Megan?

I get the sentiment behind what you are saying. But say for instance you are an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. And a Leaver tells you "I voted Leave because there's too many foreigners". What exactly is the positive response to that? "Yes, that's really great, that's what democracy is all about isn't it?"

Or say a Leaver says they voted to get rid of unelected EU representatives. What's the positive take on that? "Yes, I can completely understand where you are coming from"

Or how about "we need to make our own laws". How does one respond to a LIE in an convincing positive manner? "Hmmm, yes I quite agree, I know full well what you're saying is nonsense but for the sake of being nice, I will agree with you".

I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue if someone told me they voted on the premise of immigration. I would probably tell them to go fuck themselves.

Polarisation occurred because the vote was a binary choice. People were asked to pick a side.

Why is it up to remainers to placate the feelings of leavers? Leavers 'won'. Yet they aren't great with sportsmanship, anyone who dares question them gets called a snowflake or a loony lefty etc. Shouldnt they also be trying to bridge a gap with the losing side? Or should it all fall to remainers?

Sorry, one more thing @MeganBacon. Did you read the article Bear posted above. The guy called a black woman the N-word and told her she will have to go home after we've left the EU. Should remainers positively engage with people like him? There are plenty of them. Should I try to find positives with people like him even though I detest racism with every ounce of my being?

I know plenty of leavers at work who are themselves 2nd/3rd generation immigrants and my dh is German and a brexiteer. So I haven't been in a situation where anyone has suggested they voted Leave due to immigration, but if that actually happened I would try to engage with them to understand why they think that. A lot of it would be down to tone and tolerance - these are desperate times and we have to lead on that and hope people follow. Some will, many won't, but I feel like we've got to try or we are part of the problem.

Well no there is clearly a line that cannot be crossed and I could only engage with that person to say how unforgivable that word is, but I would try to even say that in a non-aggressive way.

Well clearly your husband didn't vote to Leave cos he was 'sick of foreigners' then. Hmm have you ever tried to understand the mindset of a racist?

I didn't say it should all fall to remainers, of course it shouldn't. It falls to everyone of us. What I'm saying is that this Board could have had a very positive influence over the past three years but I think it hasn't reached its potential and that feels like a lost opportunity.

And I'm not being held responsible, nor am I part of the problem that people have a prejudiced view.

If you don't want to bear some shared responsibility for the disaster that is about to happen

I’ll refer you back to “not my circus, not my monkeys”. I didn’t vote for this, and 48% of those that voted have been completely sidelined by May’s hard Brexit red lines.

If May had gone for a soft Brexit with EEA / EFTA then Remain voters would most likely have accepted that and the UK would be out of the EU by now.

Instead, the country is polarised and now there’s no middle ground.

Well done Leave, enjoy your “win”..

You haven't explained how though.

Sorry that was to Megan.

How could this board been more positive? It's a shite situation, I just don't see the mechanics of how it could be more positive, unless you expect remainers to just shut up and swallow the bullshit wholesale