There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

My mother always had a saying which I never understood as a kid, but as an adult makes perfect sense.

'"Don't care" was made to care' she would say.

She said it everytime I said as a child "I don't care" in my little stroppy madam voice. Till eventually I wised up and realised that when the when the consequences of my actions were actually felt, I did indeed care.

That's kind of how Brexit is. Leavers don't care. But eventually they will feel the weight of their not caring. And by God, it will bite back hard.

Haha yup, facts = kryptonite

This hands down is arguably the most stupid thing I have ever read in all my life

Contradictory. How can something be hands down and arguable at the same time?

Was the government not responsible for exercising due diligence to examine the potential effects on;

Healthcare
Food supplies
Job security
National Security
Good Friday Agreement
Economic Impacts, etc.,

before sanctioning that a referendum would take place? A feasibility study in more simple language. I would say yes they were.

So why did they not perform such studies before calling the referendum? I don't remember detailed studies being attached to the leaflet that was sent to all UK household or even websites referenced on the leaflet for further reading.

Considering the significance of the question people were being asked to vote upon I would have thought awareness of such issues would be paramount?

If the comments made on this thread are correct how come it was not a landslide vote to Remain. Are all the 17.4 million who voted Leave;

Millionaires who are not bothered as cushioned? I think not.

Certain never to become ill so healthcare immaterial. I think not.

Have guaranteed jobs for life? I think not as who does these days?

On benefits. I think not as about 5 million are claiming benefits

Over 65s with massive assets and pensions? I think not as over 65s are 18% of population which is about 12 million and not all are homeowners and have large pensions.

So why was vote to Leave a majority?

life most people know the choice should never have been offered without a detailed plan in place but it was.

You have to be incredibly stubborn and selfish though to refuse to acknowledge all the realities that are now perfectly clear and still want to press ahead on the strength of a few soundbites that you repeat endlessly and it doesn’t occur to you to question.

I’d still love to hear, on either thread, a specific country we can’t trade with now that will help us grow faster than any other EU economy by trading with them in the future.

You must be able to name one, otherwise why would you keep repeating that?

LifeContinues
Just another list of crap trying to distance yourself and other leavers for the mess you have created.

{ I don't remember detailed studies being attached to the leaflet that was sent to all UK household}
It was a small leaflet and had references to the UK.GOV website from where you can read all you want, and if that was not enough you can go on the EU website and read all you want there.
But NO, it was better to listen to the 'leave' campaigns promising unicorns and abandon any critical thinking as to HOW the promises might come about.

You have the Internet, yes? You could have researched this stuff, as could 17.4mn people. Instead they got sucked in by lies, lies and more lies and anything else was dismissed as Project Fear.

Lots of people voted due to worries about TTIP, which was quashed before the referendum. Same voted for the 350mn per week NHS lie on the bus (wasn't it you who mentioned it previously).

I work in a research-oriented place, our research has partnerships with countries and institutions all over the world. Common-sense told me it would be illogical to put that in jeopardy or have it hanging in limbo when we already are part of numerous schemes.

Ok, I'm gonna throw this question straight back to you based on your points. Thos in your family who voted Leave (you say you are neither, but you clearly are a BeLeaver), have you asked them what they thought would happen to NHS after we've left? What do you think will happen? After all you are certain to need healthcare at some point in your life.

Have you asked any of the working Leave voters you know if they have any reservations about their jobs? Do you have any reservations about yours? Pray tell.

Are any Leave voters you know on benefits? Are you? Do you see our goverment tightening the purse strings more after Brexit?

Its a bit late in the day to be asking questions now about why wasn't stuff posted on flyers. We all know its because DC thought Remain would win.

Cross-post with Bear and 1Tis

Was the government not responsible for exercising due diligence to examine the potential effects on;

I think we all agree that Cameron was a tosser for promising a Referendum, and he's now run away and shown himself to be a coward also. I also think the MPs showed a dereliction of duty in letting the legislation through but there is an important caveat: those who tried to build in the safeguards, like a 2/3 : 1/3 majority, or all nations of the UK being in agreement were fobbed off because it was an Advisory Referendum. Cameron's promises to implement the result are neither hear nor their, because it was up to Parliament to do so.

The Leave vote was a bare majority in terms of the voting electorate and only a quarter in terms of the population size. I think there would be much less argument about it had there been a much bigger majority. Of those who voted Leave, how many were seduced by the NHS promise, which the Leave side immediately reneged on?

If there had been a genuine majority then perhaps there might have been people who could see some genuine benefits, not pie in the sky, unicorn stuff.

Certain never to become ill so healthcare immaterial. I think not.

Those who voted for more money for the NHS would have every right to be angry when it gets sold off to the Americans in exchange for trade deals. But will they take it out on Farage, Johnson, Gove and all the other sorry crowd, who are wealthy enough to pay for private medicine? I doubt it?

BTW here not hear in the previous post.

I don't remember detailed studies being attached to the leaflet that was sent to all UK household or even websites referenced on the leaflet for further reading

Information was published by the Government, as required by the EU Ref Act - publicly available for anyone who cared to read it. It was published after the leaflet and the leaflet did have a link to the official eureferendum.gov.uk for those who wanted further info.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf

If you remember, the Treasury reports published at the same time were widely rubbished as “Project Fear”.

To Closeheart

Some voters (both remain and leave) might have looked on the internet, but I doubt if many spent hours, days or weeks researching reports on; healthcare, job security, GFA, etc. More likely that how they voted was based on what they read in the press, what they saw and heard on TV and their own personal experiences and views developed over a period of years or even decades.

Both my parents worked in the NHS all their lives. Father for the max 40 years (Driver) and mother for 32 (theatre nurse, then community nurse then MacMillan specialist). Their view is that NHS has been crumbling for decades long before Brexit was a subject.

Neither are surprised that many have turned to private care like my mother did and some employers offer private medical insurance as part of the employment packages. Their view is that NHS is beyond repair and will be replaced with a USA type system.

The leavers I know are either on contract employment like myself, retired or unskilled on low wages. Of the professional people I know such as Legal, Accountants, QC's they seemed to be a mixed bag of remain and leave supporters.

Of the friends and relatives who are on benefits (some of them for many years) many of them do not vote at all and seem to think that governments make no difference to their lives whether it be labour or conservative. Most think MP's are the least trustworthy people in the UK after Estate Agents and Solicitors.

So why did they not perform such studies before calling the referendum? I don't remember detailed studies being attached to the leaflet that was sent to all UK household or even websites referenced on the leaflet for further reading.

So @LifeContinues, you are actually coming on here to put forward your arguments. But you openly confess that you have zero knowledge of the topic you are debating because you didn't receive a leaflet (and seemingly, didn't do any online research either).

That's on a par with me going into an examination on "the standard model of Particle Physics" and not actually knowing much about the topic, yet expecting glorious results.

I would have at least thought you'd have researched your topic before casting your vote. Where was your due diligence?

Their view is that NHS has been crumbling for decades long before Brexit was a subject.

So nothing to do with the EU then, and more to do with government underfunding. How does your story of your parents relate to why they voted to leave the EU?

Neither are surprised that many have turned to private care like my mother did and some employers offer private medical insurance as part of the employment packages. Their view is that NHS is beyond repair and will be replaced with a USA type system.

And the help for those that cant afford insurance?

I would have at least thought you'd have researched your topic before casting your vote. Where was your due diligence?

I did not vote in the EU referendum as out of UK at the time. Job interview. Last time I voted was in 1983.

Parents main reasons for voting Leave was;

EU captains such as Barnier and Juncker not elected
EU meddles with everything
Immigration

Their view is that NHS has been crumbling for decades long before Brexit was a subject.

So why give it a further kick in the teeth?

Their view is that NHS is beyond repair and will be replaced with a USA type system.

US healthcare is renowned for being costly, less so for quality. Objective measures like neonatal mortality rates show that such a wealthy country should be doing much better. There are other health care models available - we could look to Germany, Scandinavia, New Zealand to look at alternatives. We don't have to slavishly adopt a system of expensive health care for the wealthy and the rest can go hang.

*EU captains such as Barnier and Juncker not elected
EU meddles with everything

So they weren't informed either. AND they worked in the NHS?? That is utterly disgraceful

Oops sorry, missed out one of your parents key points there. IMMIGRATION!

I find that utterly abhorrent.

Just about to hold an election for Juncker's replacement, and irony of ironies May may end up with the casting vote.

So what was that about unelected?

Barnier was put in charge of EU negotiations as David Davis was initially. Did anyone vote for Davis on the understanding that he might some day be asked to front a negotiating committee?

I do wonder where the people who object to immigration live. If it's Cornwall or the North East there isn't all that much immigration. Cornwall suffers from second home ownership, but that's not EU citizens pricing them out, it's wealthy south easterners.

What pisses me off the most is you've come on here trying to make what you believe sound like valid arguments. And deep down you can't bring yourself to say, "the people I know voted leave cos of immigration".

You've made christ knows how many posts trying to back up weak arguments. I bet if you were in the UK you would have voted leave. Then you'd still come on here dressing up your 'reasons' as something of substance.

Why don't you just come out and say it, it's all about immigration. At least have the strength of your conviction instead of tarting up your arguments in flowery language.

So they weren't informed either. AND they worked in the NHS?? That is utterly disgraceful

Made their minds up before the Leaflet arrived. Opened it looked at it for a few moments and said.

"We the taxpayer have had to pay for this. Wish we had 9 million to throw away"

As for ;

*Oops sorry, missed out one of your parents key points there. IMMIGRATION!

I find that utterly abhorrent*

Maybe you do, but that does not prevent people from voting how they choose.

Issue for me on this thread and other like it is that those who voted remain think they have a superiority over those who voted Leave. I disagree. Democracy is allowing people to choose how they vote and accepting the result even if it is not the result you wanted to hear. Had the result in 2016 been to Remain I would apply the same logic.

Its disgusting that immigrants prop up the NHS and the people who voted leave don't give a shiny shit about them. Humans treating other humans as trash. Absolutely disgusting. But for God sake, at least own it.

Bear was right. I'd like to think it wasnt about immigration, but Leave-bots, you're all the fucking same. Disgusting!

or the North East there isn't all that much immigration

Wrong.

"the people I know voted leave cos of immigration".

They did along with their dislike of the EU. Which of the two was the most important factor in their choice I don't know.

No it doesn't prevent them from voting how they choose, but they could at least have the good grace and audacity to consider their impact on their fellow humans before casting such a narrow minded vote.