There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

Thread has degenerated into another;

"Remain voters are of superior intelligence to those who voted Leave and can forecast the future with certainty so how dare the Leavers not change their minds"

Democracy is freedom to choose when voting and accepting that sometimes your vote is the minority opinion. No matter which way people voted in 2016 those who voted differently cannot claim superiority.

Impossible to know, but I think had remain been the majority vote in 2016 Brexit may never have been mentioned again?

The phrase No Deal should be replaced with WTO Deal. UK are still entitled to trade, but it will be on WTO terms to begin with.

"The phrase No Deal should be replaced with WTO Deal. UK are still entitled to trade, but it will be on WTO terms to begin with."

Like saying diarrhoea is actually the prompt operation of the intestines.

Impossible to know, but I think had remain been the majority vote in 2016 Brexit may never have been mentioned again?

Which just goes to show you’re not actually interested in leaving the EU, you’ve just dug your heels in about winning.

"Impossible to know, but I think had remain been the majority vote in 2016 Brexit may never have been mentioned again?"

I thought idle speculation to prove a point was what Remainers did

Democracy is freedom to choose when voting and accepting that sometimes your vote is the minority opinion.

I accept my vote is the minority opinion. I hope you can accept and own yours when things make us worse off. I hope you are vocal about your leanings and proudly stand up for what you believe in even when you can see thr damage its caused.

Oh wait, you didn't vote did you?

{"Remain voters are of superior intelligence to those who voted Leave and can forecast the future with certainty so how dare the Leavers not change their minds"}

I don't need a cystal ball to see that my pension and income has been buggered by Brexit already, it is there in my bank statements.
Add in the stress caused by having at least some of my rights interfered with, and are, like so many others, still in limbo.
The real 'killer' is that Leavers will never get what they say they wanted. The impact of a slight change in 'sovereignty' will be almost immeasurable for the average citizen in the street.

The phrase No Deal should be replaced with WTO Deal.

Falling back onto basic WTO rules is not a “deal” in any sense of the word. It’s the basic framework that underlies world trade.

That’s why it’s called No Deal.

{Falling back onto basic WTO rules is not a “deal” in any sense of the word. It’s the basic framework that underlies world trade.}

This is a parallel to the WA in that the WA is (apart from the Citizens rights, backstop and the 'exit bill) a set of rules for departing the EU.

Neither are deals as such.

Like saying diarrhoea is actually the prompt operation of the intestines

Another example of hindsight being applied to argue that the future can be forecast with certainty. Diarrhorea was first discovered in 1893 at the Johns Hopkins Hospital, one hundred and twenty six years ago. Still a common illness today with an estimated 1 in 5 people affected every year in the UK alone, about 12 million occurrences per year. However, with the benefit of 126 years of hindsight its effects and how to control are well understood.

Bexit does not have the benefit of such hindsight and therefore cannot be forecast or compared to an event that has occurred millions of times in the UK alone (or billions of times on a World basis) for over a 100 hundred years.

Which just goes to show you’re not actually interested in leaving the EU, you’ve just dug your heels in about winning

Didn't Cameron say it was a once in a Lifetime event? I don't remember any caveats about a re-run.

However, as pointed out by even the most ardent of Leave supporters such as JRM people can vote to rejoin the EU at a later if such an option is presented as a policy by any of the parties who put themselves forward in a General Election.

I thought idle speculation to prove a point was what Remainers did

Certainly appears to the case.

{Didn't Cameron say it was a once in a Lifetime event?}

A PM cannot bind the hands of a future PM.

www.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/02/uk-led-cancer-climate-trials-at-risk-british-researchers-liability-brexit-vote

The effects of the Brexit uncertainty are being felt now and this is before the UK actually leaves. Important research, one of the things the UK with it's European ties and cross funding was good at.
I hope the trailblazers for leave are happy with this.

A PM cannot bind the hands of a future PM

The two remaining PM candidates, Hunt and Johnson, are fully aware that if Brexit is not delivered by 31 October 2019 the only votes the Conservative Part will receive in a future General Election are those of the Conservative MP's themselves.

Brexit Party achieving 31% in the EU elections and topping the opinion polls demonstrates that Brexit is far from dead.

If UK can negotiate a better WA that would be the best result. However, as T May took no deal off the table signed the WA before it was even put in front of Parliament has led EU to say, and believe, the WA can't be re-visited. Hopefully a new PM who actually wants Brexit will change the EU mindset. If not then WTO is the default position.

My best guess is that if UK has a GE this year the outcome will be a Brexit Party and Conservative Party Coalition.

If UK can negotiate a better WA that would be the best result.

Can’t see there being any renegotiation of the WA - PD is open to changes though.

And if the UK leaves on WTO only then the cornerstones of the WA will still need to be agreed before the EU will start negotiating an FTA.

{If UK can negotiate a better WA that would be the best result. However, as T May took no deal off the table signed the WA before it was even put in front of Parliament has led EU to say, and believe, the WA can't be re-visited. Hopefully a new PM who actually wants Brexit will change the EU mindset. If not then WTO is the default position.}

Pure fantasy, stop talking bollocks.
From what you are suggesting it seems the UK is 'important', it is not so important that the EU will risk it's founding principles.
Time for the UK to discover what the underside of a bus looks like.

Cancer is a horrible thing to experience. Two relatives on my Mother's side of the family died from cancer. Grandfather aged 70 and aunt aged 61 (one year after she retired).

Stress on the family members waiting for the inevitable to happen seemed to cause more suffering than experienced by those who had cancer.

In my aunt's case the chemo cause all hair to be lost, the liver swelled so she looked pregnant and she became immobile in a care home that took everything she owned to cover the costs. No life at all. Better off after the inevitable happened many of the family members remarked.

Brexit or no brexit will not reduce the number of people who develop cancer. Treatment may be hindered, but is that due to the Brexit decision or poor planning by government by assuming that Leave would not be the majority vote? I would say the later.

Posters have been directly addressed all throughout this thread and no insults have been hurled.

So we would typically ask if you 'want to make our own laws', which EU ones do you object to? Does this also apply to International Laws?

I don't call that sneering myself, it's a couple of straight questions.

Now if Rees-Mogg and Co were to reply we could guess at "remove financial reporting requirements so that we can make millions off the backs of others and not have to tell anyone.", as a response.

Impossible to know, but I think had remain been the majority vote in 2016 Brexit may never have been mentioned again?

Farage had said if the vote had been 52:48 the other way it would have been unfinished business, so I think we would have heard plenty about Brexit. I doubt whether Rees-Mogg would have shut up either, or John Redwood.

Both men who have taken care to move their business concerns or money out of the UK. Just got to love their loyalty.

Yes, that's a sneer but it's not addressed to Leavers on these threads - it's addressed to a pair of moneyed hypocrites who will be all right while the rest of us suffer.

{Brexit or no brexit will not reduce the number of people who develop cancer.}

You are obviously not bright enough to work out that these things are connected. Even the disruption of having scientists and clinicians relocating and having to worry about work visas and so on ALL detracts from the work.

{Treatment may be hindered, but is that due to the Brexit decision or poor planning by government by assuming that Leave would not be the majority vote? }

This is so small minded and simplistic it is no wonder things are such a mess, and to 'blame' others for your stupidity is so typical of Leavers.

Treatment may be hindered, but is that due to the Brexit decision or poor planning by government by assuming that Leave would not be the majority vote? I would say the later.

FFS life this isn’t a fucking game.

We are well past the point of laying the blame for not thinking Leave would win.

Those who wanted it are responsible for working out how to make it happen without ‘hindering cancer treatment’

And if they can’t do that then those who chose it have a duty to decide it’s not worth the price that needs to be paid.

But you won’t because you still just see your soundbites in isolation.

There were some unlooked for events. Who expected the torrent of racism to be unleashed? The CoE has just appointed its first black female bishop. She said she'd lived here 30 years and only after the Referendum was she told to 'go back home'.

Did the Leavers predict that E Europeans especially would say "I'm not welcome, I'm off"? Hence causing our hospitals especially to be short staffed. (Yes UK Governments could have planned to make sure that there were UK born and bred staff to replace them, but they could have been doing this any time in the last 70 years since the Health Service was founded and they haven't done, so I am not holding my breath for a sudden change of heart.)

Treatment may be hindered, but is that due to the Brexit decision or poor planning by government by assuming that Leave would not be the majority vote?

At what point prior to the EU Ref was Euratom discussed? Why have EU staff been drifting away from the NHS without proper replacement? Why are UK research bodies losing funding and collaboration opportunities?

Absolutely to do with the “majority” (well 37% of the electorate) voting without full knowledge of the implications of leaving the EU and the subsequent government’s choices on implementing that decision.

Brexit or no brexit will not reduce the number of people who develop cancer.

Scientific and medical research certainly helps in this either to find causes or more effective treatments. So we have just chosen to hobble our research with our European partners. Personally I do put that down to Brexit.

At what point prior to the EU Ref was Euratom discussed?

None. A day or two after the Referendum, I asked my DS who was working for the UKAEA at the time, whether this would affect them. He said no, Euratom was a different treaty. Imagine the Senior Management's shock when the first they heard of the UK pulling out of Euratom was when Theresa May tagged it onto A50.

BTW - where does my DS work now? Not in the UK!

Brexit or no brexit will not reduce the number of people who develop cancer. Treatment may be hindered, but is that due to the Brexit decision or poor planning by government by assuming that Leave would not be the majority vote? I would say the later.

This hands down is arguably the most stupid thing I have ever read in all my life.

Now now, don’t forget OP, saying unflattering words to BeLeavers on an Internet forum is worse than cancer