Westminstenders: Brace Yourself It's Gonna BeBoris

[RedToothBrush]

It seems inconceivable that Hunt can beat Johnson. And whilst we are all considering the horrors that Prime Johnson can bring...

Let's not forget Brexit, whats Brexit?

Already there is talk that Boris has gone soft on 31st Oct as an absolute. But he's also promised the earth to the ERG.

So what suits Boris best?

What does his ego demand?

What does Boris want his legacy to be?

Our fate rests on Boris's whims and personal desires.

And if you are Scottish, Muslim or otherwise not rich, white and male you might have reason to be concerned.

I don’t necessarily believe that Parliament are to blame.

MPs were still whipped to vote in a specific way even during the indicative votes.

Given a free vote we may have found a solution.

Funnily enough, it is mainly those who support Leaving that are rebelling against their parties.

So if we do want to blame specific MPs then I do believe it should be Leave supporting MPs.

Without their rebellions the WA would have been voted through

PMK

Thanks again Red

People were speculating on the previous thread about JRM being in BJ's cabinet. I can't see JRM wanting to sully his hands. And taking ministerial responsibility.

And will Davies still be allowed to vote in the HoC till then?

Nope - as soon as the Speaker announces the result the seat becomes vacant.

Can you tell all the other leavers what Brexit is then, please?
Do you need to ask ?

Sovereignty (which we never lost)
Control our own borders (which not being in Schengen, we do)
More money for the NHS - £350 million a week quoted - bit quiet on this one now.
Trade with XYZ country, which we could do now if we bothered to negotiate.

But really - sell of the NHS to the US. Make oodles of money for the likes of Rees-Mogg and Farage and er um, that's it I think.

Where have I said anything like admitting that I didn't know what I voted for? I know very well what I voted for, thank you.

You said you thought there would be more details by now. Ergo you didn't know the details at the time. Ergo you didn't know what you were voting for and still don't know what you're getting

What you mean is you know what you hoped you were voting for - not the same thing at all. You and 17.4 million other people - all hoping for something different. And if what you were hoping for wasn't the three year shit fest we've just had - then you didn't know what you were voting for - because you didn't know what you were going to get.

The part where you said you would have thought there would be more details by now is the part where you admit you didn't know what you were voting for (you know - the bit I quoted). Tricky concept to understand for the hard of thinking I know.

As for what to call BJ, DH and I are Scottish and like to call him ‘Bawjaws’ (baw being a rude word in Scots)

Lib Dem’s would need a swing of 9.8% to win Brecon and Radnorshire - which is much lower than the current national polling.

And if both BXP and Tories stand then that will split the Leave vote.

Radom 18, good point re the whipping. I can't honestly remember who was whipped to do what and who wasn't.

Those who support leaving have been the majority of rebels in the Conservative party, agree there. As I said though, they are hugely outnumbered by MPs from other groups/parties.

If Parliamentarians as a whole continue to pay more attention to the instructions of their "whips" than the instructions of the electorate, then yes, I will blame them for that.

Please don't put words in my mouth pretzels, it's not a good look.

My expectation that we'd "have more details by now" is simply a reflection that I'd expected, following Article 50, that we'd have left by the end of March this year.

As I said though, they are hugely outnumbered by MPs from other groups/parties.

You seem to be surprised that the opposition have been opposing government policy that they don't believe will be good for either the country or their constituents. Why is that?

that we'd have left by the end of March this year.

To have, what exactly?

I think most of us would go along with the £350 million a week for the NHS but although there have been dribs and drabs of money, I don't think there has been anything substantial.

Well I don't know about the Opposition opposing - I would like to have seen a bit more of that.

Mark Field suspended.

I didn't put words in your mouth Louise i inferred from what you said. Anyone who hopes details will emerge later does not know the details now. Anyone who does not know the details now does not know what the thing they are proposing looks like - or even what it is.

leaving in March and 'having details now' is not the same thing at all. You didn't vote to leave in March, because we didn't know when article 50 would be triggered. So either you were expecting details before we left but post voting, or you were happy to be detail free until after we left - in the assumption something would materialise. Either way - you didn't know what those details were in June 2016 ergo you didn't know what you were voting for

Thanks Red
am thinking we must be getting to the top if mumsnet's longest running threads series soon! How many?!

What I am somewhat surprised about, and I have posted on this at length before is that we have in our current Parliament a group of MPs who:

Agreed to legislate to hold a referendum (with a small number of honourable exceptions)....

...and further Agreed to commence the process of leaving by triggering Article 50.

What they are now apparently unwilling to agree to is to give effect to any reading of the actual result of the 2016 referendum. A majority of MPs are determined to stop "no deal", they are perfectly within their rights to try and do that. However, at the same time, no majority of MPs has been found for the Prime Minister's deal or any of the alternatives that have been put to the House, even on an indicative vote.

Surely anyone can see why this is a source of huge frustration, no?

Yes, she did know what she was voting for. It was Leave. But it was a pig in a poke sort of Leave.

Like that TV programme which used to be on years ago where you could take the money or Open the box. The box might have contained a prize like a holiday, or it might have contained an old banana skin.

First, I wasn't "proposing" anything.

For goodness sake I didn't "hope" details would emerge. I expected they would, and indeed they did, a Withdrawal Agreement has been prepared.

What I am unclear about now, (isn't everyone?) is the details of what will happen if no Withdrawal Agreement is actually approved.

Again, please don't tell me I didn't know what I voted for, I certainly did.

"So Louise if you know what you voted for, what does "Leave" actually mean to you?

Again, please don't tell me I didn't know what I voted for, I certainly did.

All you actually voted for was Leave. Not the manner, the plan the details.

You might know it in your head, but that’s it.

Wouldn’t it be lovely if Chris Davies was replaced by a LD.

I knew what I voted for too hth. Waves at Louise even though being Leavers is probably the only thing we have in common politically.

I see the echo is feeling very frustrated at the lack of whipping boys / girls. Sorry - some of us have actual lives, oh and migraines.

I knew what I voted for too hth

Not really. As it was all in your mind, not on the ballot paper.

Agreed to legislate to hold a referendum (with a small number of honourable exceptions)....

...and further Agreed to commence the process of leaving by triggering Article 50.

Yes that is frustrating. They should never have done those things as they neither benefited the country nor their constituents. However, having done those things it does not follow that they need to roll over and enable hard tory brexit (which TM's deal was!). Back when they agreed to the referendum 'no one was talking about jeopardising our place in the single market' - the lines moved, and at some point they need to make a stand about those lines being unacceptable. I agree - I would have vastly preferred them to make that stand prior to the triggering of article 50, but I can also see they were in a bind. They had agreed to enact the referendum and TM was bouncing them into triggering article 50- the daily mail was running 'enemies of the people' headlines about judges declaring it was a matter for the whole pf parliament and not just the executive. It would have been nice if they'd stood up and said 'not until there's a definite plan', but that would have been a terrifying prospect in the climate the leave press were whipping up and, I bet - like most leavers - they thought there must be some kind of plan. There wasn't.

And now faced with American trade deals flooding our markets with shoddy and dangerous products, mass job losses and the complete and final destruction of the welfare state - based on the blind brexit of the W.A and the P.D - they have finally decided it is time to make that stand and say 'no'.

I said at the time they were voting that I did not envy them the decision between voting for something so awful ,which they didn't believe in and knew would be harmful - that they knew people would hate and always having to know they were culpable, it was done in their name - and refusing to vote for it and allowing the possibility of something much worse to happen. But that was the choice they had to make because of where their previous mistakes had got them. Funnily enough, most chose not to make the mistake of voting with the tories again.

But TM had a working majority with the (leaver) DUP. There are enough leave labour to counteract the tory rebels. It was the ERG refusing to vote for the deal which stopped it passing. It was the leavers who thwarted brexit.