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Brexit

Westminstenders: Johnson v Stewart

970 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2019 18:16

Debate time.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
LouiseCollins28 · 19/06/2019 14:57

Other sources of outrage are available lol!

It matters because the BBC invited both of these people on to ask questions giving them a platform, (and I'm guessing paid them something even if it was just expenses) with our money. Further to that, its supposed to be impartial, and yet it is now known that one of the guests worked for the Labour party.

The idea that QT is biased towards Leave btw, is absurd. Look at the list of panellists.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 14:58

Text of Ivan Richards speech. analysis of No Deal & after

www.eureferendum.com/documents/ivan%20speech%20final.pdf

I now think a “no deal” outcome the probability, for reasons I shall explain.

But I have thought it a serious risk since autumn 2016,
and been saying to private sector and university audiences since then
that I thought the risk was vastly underpriced by the markets, most companies and the media.

Why?
Because the previous Prime Minister kicked off the negotiation process with 2 speeches

  • at the 2016 Party Conference and at Lancaster House in January 2017,
which I think frankly were 2 of the most ill-advised speeches given by a British Prime Minister since the War.

Those speeches revealed a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of our post Brexit options.

And of the scale, length and complexity of the disentanglement process which Brexit entails.

That misunderstanding perpetuates itself even now in the surreal debates we see unfolding 3 years after the referendum.
......
The “belief” theory of negotiations
– if we just have enough true belief, confidence in our greatness and chutzpah, we shall achieve all we want –
always reminds me of some of the more ill-fated underachieving England World Cup campaigns of past decades.

The pre tournament “this time the Cup is coming home” media spree is this year’s Tory Party Conference coverage
...
As the former Prime Minister gradually came to understand that these speeches had locked her into a position both wholly unsustainable and undesirable from the UK economic viewpoint,
every baby step she then took to nuance her position, in particular to address UK manufacturers’ concerns, and prevent the decimation of key industries,
was met with howls of outrage from her Right as the betrayal of the “only true path” Brexit.

Which, it turned out, was a hard “no deal” Brexit
which had not been the prospectus sold to the public in the referendum campaign.
......
The reality was that she was, until far too late, utterly determined to put Party before national interest,
and seek to win solely on Tory and DUP votes.

She was counting on a loyalty which she might perhaps have had some right to expect,
but was never in danger of getting.
....
They want a complete rupture with the EU. Most always did, actually.
But they were savvy enough to recognise that you would not get 52% of the public to vote that prospectus in 2016.
.....
But I look at the current Tory leadership election, and frankly it brings to mind more Talleyrand’s great quote about the Bourbons having “learned nothing and forgotten nothing”.

We hear all manner of undeliverable promises, made as if the events of the last 3 years have made no impact on the collective consciousness.

I also look across the Channel and see a Continental elite which is bored with Brexit,
frustrated and baffled by London, increasingly reconciled to the likely failure of the process,
and prepared to move on to what they regard as more important issues in the next 5 years
....
unless the UK seeks an extension, there is no decision for the 27 to take. “No deal” is then automatic.
...
If, contrary to what is being said in order to garner votes now, and in line with most EU expectations,
he seeks an extension at the October European Council
– recognising, as is completely obvious already, incidentally, that no new deal could under any conceivable circumstances, be negotiated and passed in the House by October 31 –

the 27 would, I suspect, be prepared to extend.

But only on the basis that a Withdrawal Agreement containing the backstop was not reopened.

And that revisions to the Political Declaration and any texts elaborating on the process by which one might obviate the need for a backstop ever to come into force,
or the steps by which it might be “phased out” after it had come into force,
were the maximum on offer.

In other words, not a time limit, nor a unilateral exit mechanism,
but some further explication of what is already in the Withdrawal Agreement
and some warm words about the process
to try and arrive an an alternative to the backstop over the next several years.
...
The assumption that a General Election is therefore coming really rather soon
and much sooner than anyone is prepared or incentivised to admit -
is now as widespread in other capitals as it is with the bookies here.

1tisILeClerc · 19/06/2019 15:00

When I were a nipper it was an abbreviation, like saying a 'Brit'. I don't remember it having particular racist connotations.

Basilpots · 19/06/2019 15:01

Doesn’t make the question any less valid or improve the replies he received.

Problem is when Leavers get mad they get mad at the wrong people.

Does make me chuckle when they threaten not to vote like that’s going to help.

prettybird · 19/06/2019 15:04

Watched a piece on Sky News with Beth Rigby, Lisa Nandy, Philippa Whitford and some Conservative MP (supporter of BJ).

They were rightly horrified that the Conservative blowhard, in addition to not ruling out "No Deal" "because it's a negotiating option" Hmm, refused to rule out proroguing Parliament "because it's a negotiating option" and if Parliament wouldn't play ball, proroguing had to be a course of action open to the PM.ShockAngry

I don't always agree with Lisa Nandy, but as she rightly said, "That way, dictatorship lies" ShockSadAngry

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2019 15:05

Poll on last nights performance

Westminstenders: Johnson v Stewart
OP posts:
Belindabelle · 19/06/2019 15:07

My 85 year old mother in law from Glasgow still refers to the corner shop as the Paki shop. Doesn't matter how many times we tell her it is not acceptable.

Peregrina · 19/06/2019 15:09

Or are hard core leavers all mouth and no trousers.

Farage will have made himself scarce - of that I predict with 100% certainty.

Random18 · 19/06/2019 15:12

Belindabelle - I remember my granny using that phrase too.

Although I do remember her then a long time ago telling me you couldn’t say that anymore.

As a child I used to refer to a Chinese takeaway differently although it’s something that I would never say now.

No r was ever meant - it was just a glaswegian way (and I am sure many other places) if shortening a word.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 19/06/2019 15:16

So we "never give in to terrorists" but must pander to Leavers because they'll be "mad" otherwise hmm. Sorry, the stench of hypocrisy is too much sometimes - even for someone with a pass-plus in extended cynicism like myself. Are you a Leaver ? Are you unhappy with the way democracy refuses to accommodate your exact world view ? Are you so angry you are prepared to break the law to do something ? Then you, my cunty friend, are a terrorist pure and simple. And as such, you deserve to be subject to the full weight of the law and it's penalties. Fuck you and your jackbooted friends and the tank you rode into town on

Is that aimed at me DRG?

I’m really not a leaver. I just can’t see Parliament pushing through a PV if no deal isn’t on the ballot. These people want to get re-elected after all.

I’m in despair, I want a PV. I can’t imagine a vote without no deal being there (or Leavers will declare the result meaningless (although they will probably do that anyway)).

Really scared by the YouGov poll showing just how much those Tory members would be prepared to sacrifice to get Brexit. Even if they genuinely believed no deal would be hugely damaging they would probably still vote for it.

God knows what will get us out of this horrific limbo.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 15:17

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/19/unite-country-brexit-labour-general-election

Of those who voted Labour in 2017, just 51% would vote Labour todayay^.*

Thirty-six per cent would vote Lib Dem, Green or SNP;
just 11% would vote for the Brexit party or (in a very few cases) Conservative
< so defectors are going over 3:1 to Remain parties >
....
The swing in national opinion from 52% to 48% in favour of leave in 2016 to 44% to 56% in favour of remain,
if we take an average of recent polls, has been driven by two main factors.

The first is demographic (older, mainly leave, voters dying while overwhelmingly pro-remain teenagers reaching voting age).

The second is Labour voters changing their minds
– especially in the party’s northern and midlands heartlands.

One particular group that has swung decisively to remain are Britain’s nurses.
Many of them were persuaded by the promise of an extra £350m a week for the NHS, and they now feel they were deceived.
....
In all bar a very few constituencies, most Labour supporters in leave constituencies voted remain three years ago:
it was non-Labour supporters that supplied the leave majorities in Sunderlandd^ and elsewhere.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 15:20

It's not about sensible or not
It's about what PV options can get through an HoC - if they ever do debate PV again

If the only PV choice that will pass is No Deal vs Revoke, then that is what we will get

DGRossetti · 19/06/2019 15:23

Is that aimed at me DRG?

Are you threatening violence if you can't get your way through the ballot box ? Then yes.

If not, then no.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 15:23

Political reality may be that Remainers insisting No Deal be removed from a PV is as unacceptable as Leavers demanding that Revoke be removed

The country is polarised to the extremes and it may be that only a PV on the 2 extremes can pass the HoC

Of course, we may never get that far, if BJ goes for No Deal, or indeed for a GE on No Deal

ElenadeClermont · 19/06/2019 15:29

Sorry for the link to Guido:
Twenty-six Labour MPs have written to Jeremy Corbyn to urge him to not commit to a second referendum – a position he is expected to inch even closer to this week. The MPs insist that Labour must “back a deal before 31 October” – despite twenty of these MPs voting against the Withdrawal Agreement when they had the chance.

order-order.com/2019/06/19/twenty-six-labour-mps-sign-brexit-must-happen-letter/

Of course, my MP is on there. There is nothing like the fervour of the recently converted.

QueenOfThorns · 19/06/2019 15:29

But a PV after a GE sprung on us after a NC vote once the new PM is installed would have to get through a different HoC (I think that sentence may have exceeded some kind of threshold for number of abbreviations)!

On a completely separate topic, DGR has inspired me. Rather than a vote of Tory psychopaths, I think the last round in the leadership contest should be a knife juggling competition Grin

DGRossetti · 19/06/2019 15:32

Political reality may be that Remainers insisting No Deal be removed from a PV is as unacceptable as Leavers demanding that Revoke be removed

If no-deal could be construed as breaking the UKs undertakings vis a vis the GFA then there is a further constitutional wrinkle as to whether it can be an option in a referendum ? So far no one has been bold enough to come up with an answer you could take to the bank. But it should be a matter of public (and international) policy that governments cannot use referenda as a fig leaf to then abandon their international commitments.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 19/06/2019 15:34

Are you threatening violence if you can't get your way through the ballot box ? Then yes. If not then no

I’m really not. I was pondering the likelihood of leavers getting violent - whilst remembering hardly any could be arsed to march in support of Leave.

tobee · 19/06/2019 15:36

@ElenadeClermont I was looking at Tom Watson's tweet on that. It's particularly annoying because Jeremy Corbyn's rubbish performance during the referendum campaign did nothing to address labour leave areas imo. Totally ineffectual.

billysboy · 19/06/2019 15:40

so who do we think will get voted off today ?

My money is on Sajid Javid

DGRossetti · 19/06/2019 15:43

I’m really not. I was pondering the likelihood of leavers getting violent

That's what we have a police force for. That and harassing people for "wrong thought", of course.

whilst remembering hardly any could be arsed to march in support of Leave.

For something that's supposed to be so important in their lives, Leavers haven't really done much about it that demands much effort.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 15:46

DG The reason the RoI and hence the EU are so insistent on the backstop is that the GFA does NOT specifically rule out a harder goods border.

That is because when the GFA was signed in 1998, it was assumed both the UK and Ireland would always be EU members - it even mentions being EU partners in the text foreward

Brexit was then the outermost lunatic fringe

No Deal breaks the spirit of the GFA, but not the legal text

https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

"Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours
and as partners in the European Union"

Belindabelle · 19/06/2019 15:47

I would have thought Javid but rumour is that Johnstone is "giving" him votes to put Stewart in last place.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 15:48

An example of why any treaty should try to cover all possible future eventualities - but can be caught out by a Black Swan event

DGRossetti · 19/06/2019 15:49

No Deal breaks the spirit of the GFA, but not the legal text

My gut feeling is that the UK won't be making many friends if it acts "legally" but in bad faith regarding an international treaty. It's a little too close to the first step on becoming a rogue state. It's not as it we're Israel ....