Westminstenders: Johnson v Stewart

[RedToothBrush]

Debate time.

[BestIsWest]

I still don’t think we’ll ever leave. I reckon Boris will revoke.

Logic and reason play no part in this feeling.

[BigChocFrenzy]

If no modified WA can pass, then it is either a GE - unpredictble result - or No Deal

or maybe the EU will continue giving schlongs - they won't risk a long extension in case the govt / Farage disrupt EU business

but Boris would have to ask for extensions - and he probably wouldn't survive #2.

This is why prorogation can look a tempting alternative - Boris could survive longer
but HMQ would never forgive him for involving her and would probably delay long enough for an NC

[LonelyTiredandLow]

Mahoosive tangent here, but when did having sex with two twelve year old girls, getting one pregnant (before murdering her ) become having "an interest in under-age sex" rather than being a paedophile?
Sanitising language or are we being told this is because he's only in Court charged not convicted? Am actually reading this news article from Sky.

[BigChocFrenzy]

It's possible, best
BJ has no beliefs or cause but himself

[LonelyTiredandLow]

Sorry, 13 and 14 yo girls.

Was watching the video of the climate change protesters and got distracted. Anyone else wonder if this was to draw attention to Hammond and his speech, climate change and manage to drop in the Tory 2050 pledge (which I think most people see as too little to late but distracts from Brexit). Seemed a little wooden but then they aren't actors!

[LonelyTiredandLow]

And I think FB is starting to regret it's role in ending democracy as it sees usage plummet since the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Maybe there is optimum political chaos to profit ratio before there's a downward curve and people turn off...who knew!

[wheresmymojo]

Interesting Boris story...confirms what we all know...

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1139067505094402049.html

[jasjas1973]

Boris was and always has been pro EU, he is far more of a remainer than May ever was, he comes from a family of europhiles.

It really does show how fucking stupid the membership is if they vote for him, though personally, i'm not sure he'll win this final vote.

For me, he is no different from Stewart, Javid or Hunt all Remainers, all changed their minds on brexit to suit the prevailing winds.... something very very few remainers have done in real life.

[Oakenbeach]

prorogation is only a small step further

It may be a small(ish) step, but it would be one over the precipice.

Up to now there has been a lot of name calling, poisonous talk and barely concealed lies - politics has always had this to a greater or lesser extent - but the basic instruments of our democracy have functioned.... the courts and parliament have continued to do what they’ve done for hundreds of years. Judgements may have been angrily rubbished, but they have been grudgingly respected. Bitter feuds may be engulfing Westminster but all MPs respect the votes of others in divisions.

Prorogation in these circumstances would likely change all that.... Two rival sources of power would emerge as Government and Parliament vie for supremacy much like the Royalists and Parliamentarians did in the 17th century.

Don’t think for a moment that Parliament would accept Government’s prorogation of it with a few squeals of indignation. All opposition MPs and a substantial number of Tories would convene anyway even if the doors to the Palace of Westminster were locked. They’d vote down the Government and likely call for and seek to organise a General Election in teeth of opposition from the Government. The Queen would have no choice but to take sides, or at least mediate, in a political way that has been anathema to the constitutional monarch for generations. It would rock the foundations of our democracy far more than the mere squabbles we’ve seen to date.

[bellinisurge]

I doubt that even Johnson would want to be the PM that suspended Parliament.

[NoWordForFluffy]

I think prorogation is being 'kept on the table' as a 'negotiation' method with MPs (i.e. vote the way I want you to vote to get what I want through or I'll prorogue) in the same way that 'no deal' is being used with the EU27.

Both, IMO, are doomed to failure. I simply cannot see proroguing happening and while it's a threat, I think it's a pretty empty one.

And you don't get what you want by foot-stamping and threatening. I'm pretty positive this lesson will be learned shortly.

[Iambuffy]

I think bojo would love to be the PM that prorogued parliament.

Fits his own narrative of fearless leader.

Vom 🤢

[Oakenbeach]

I think prorogation is being 'kept on the table' as a 'negotiation' method with MPs

Perhaps, but I don’t imagine that will do anything except infuriate those MPs he seeks to cow.

Also, if prorogation occurs, when would the Government reconvene Parliament? Presumably they would only prorogue if a no confidence vote was imminent.... so clearly the very first thing a reconvened Parliament would do (assuming a genuine constitutional was averted in the meantime) would be to vote the Government down!.... so Government would hang on and on, seeking to govern by executive fiat whilst the Brexit crisis continues in echoes of the 11 year parliamentary void at the time of Charles I.

Seriously, prorogation is not “just another small step”, it would risk democracy as we know it. I would imagine even the likes of JRM would balk at the thought.

[NoWordForFluffy]

I don't think it's to avoid a NC vote, it's to get no deal over the line. They'd recall on 1st Nov.

And I don't disagree with your assessment, but given the logic and intelligence being shown ('a new leader can renegotiate the WA' and 'no deal is a negotiating point'), I'm relatively sure it's why it's been put out there.

[Oakenbeach]

Short of a no-confidence vote, if they can’t get a deal through, we’ll be crashing out on 31st October prorogation or not..... so why on earth prorogue if a NC isn’t imminent?

Surely all they’d be doing is risk the extremely high likelihood of a NC vote when Parliament did reconvene on 1st November! At that point the Government wouldn’t even be able to hope for support from the handful of Labour brexiteers that may support them in a pre-Brexit NC vote. It makes no sense.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

So now we have a government minister attacking a female protester by the neck. Just another day in politics.

[BigChocFrenzy]

The idea is that it would be used if Parliament was thought able to block No Deal in some way

Hard Brexiters like Raab maybe believing the claims "Parliament would never allow NoDeal"

[BigChocFrenzy]

The plan might be to call a GE right after Brexit anyway

[Peregrina]

I am one of the soft-Remainers who would have done... and I got annoyed at the Remainer-ultras - such as the LibDems - who seemingly wouldn’t accept the referendum vote.

I am much more of a hard Remainer. This wasn't the position I took - various MPs and Lords tried to get safeguards of super majorities built in but were told no it wasn't necessary, because it was an advisory referendum. Similarly the Referendum could have been voided for irregularities if it had been binding.

However much noise May, ERG and Leavers on these threads make, the result is still the same, it was an Advisory Referendum and legally that doesn't change. Accepting the Referendum vote in this spirit would have said that the result was too close to make major changes on. If May had been stronger or more sensible she could have charged the ERG to go away and do the work and come back with concrete proposals as to how we were going to Leave. The same wasn't required of the Remain side because for now, the status quo would prevail.

Now we have the extreme right trying to outdo each other in how much of a Dictator they would like to be. Where is the democracy in that? Where too are the Leavers to say that this wasn't their idea of democracy either?

[borntobequiet]

www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/which-of-these-men-will-be-britains-last-tory-prime-minister-20190621186809

Hunt: Has a natural advantage in negotiations and interviews because everyone is constantly afraid of calling him the Anglo-Saxon variation of his surname, and therefore distracted.

[1tisILeClerc]

{What do you mean by a revolution? The British are pretty apathetic.}

Others (DGR?) comment that things get very tricky after 3 meals have been missed. So far the shops are pretty much full and the value of the Pound has not changed much (in the UK).
Empty shelves, and a big drop in currency value will change the situation drastically.

Meanwhile, outside 'project ballsup' Trump had ordered an airstrike on Iran but halted it after flights were in progress. If nothing else, a big leap in the price of oil will hit the UK hard, seeing as so much gets imported.

[QueenOfThorns]

I think the possibility of Parliament being prorogued is extremely slim. Although Brenda would not normally interfere, I don’t see why she would feel obliged to go along with a request to prorogue from an unelected PM.

[1tisILeClerc]

Peregrina
Totally agree with your last post.

[1tisILeClerc]

{ Although Brenda would not normally interfere,}

I could see 'the Royal headache' coming on as a delay tactic, or if extreme could really stuff things up by suddenly deciding to step down and let Charles take over. A good few weeks of delay in that.
All of which is below her dignity of course.

[Iambuffy]

Completely agree peregrina