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Brexit

Westminstenders: Johnson v Stewart

970 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2019 18:16

Debate time.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
ElenadeClermont · 19/06/2019 09:52

Tom Peck in The Indy is even angrier than usual:

All five of our heroes did their level best to appeal to reason, and to the nation’s better nature, safe in the knowledge that in four weeks time, it will only be a tiny clique of confirmed psychopaths that gets a say.

And yes, I absolutely do mean psychopaths. The latest day of fun in the Tory psychodrama was coloured by a poll on Tuesday morning, that showed that more than 50 per cent of the Conservative party’s membership do not care if Brexit destroys the Conservative party. More than 60 per cent don’t care if it hammers the UK economy and breaks up the union with Scotland or Northern Ireland. It is a suicidal terrorist organisation and all of us are its targets.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-rory-stewart-bbc-tory-leadership-debate-latest-letterboxes-michael-gove-latest-a8964546.html

HappydaysArehere · 19/06/2019 09:56

The channel 4 debate was much better handled. Got fed up with the constant interrupting and talking over each other. Rory Stewart was being cut off as soon as he tried to speak. It was definitely let’s bash Rory night.

LoonvanBoon · 19/06/2019 09:59

It seems Labour Brexiteers are far less committed than their Tory counterparts. Maybe the one distinguishing feature.

Yes - there was some research done about this, wasn't there? Can't remember the source unfortunately, but remember the conclusion was that those most committed to Brexit were affluent Tory voters.

That poll yesterday showing the Tory members who would rather fuck the economy / their party / live through a zombie apocalypse than let go of Brexit certainly illustates this on the Tory side.

I don't know any Labour voters who feel like that, and that includes Leave voters (I'm in a Leave voting area). I know some who are (still) passionately pro Corbyn and get cross with people like Tom Watson advocating a PV, but there's no way they're suddenly going to vote Tory / Brexit Pary if the sainted Jeremy himself came out in favour of it.

QueenOfThorns · 19/06/2019 10:06

@HunkyDory69 I’m so sorry to hear this, a substantial minority of scumbags do seem to have viewed the referendum result as a mandate for openly racist behaviour. I’m not surprised that you’re feeling panicky Flowers

lonelyplanetmum · 19/06/2019 10:07

more than 50 per cent of the Conservative party’s membership do not care if Brexit destroys the Conservative party.

More than 60 per cent don’t care if it hammers the UK economy and breaks up the union with Scotland or Northern Ireland.

the lunatics have taken over the asylum definition ..

The people least capable of running a group or organisation are now in charge. Said especially when the result is total chaos or calamity.

1tisILeClerc · 19/06/2019 10:12

{When Brexit happens it will be shit either way.}

Don't shoot the messenger. The UK has had 3 years to get itself sorted and it has failed miserably.
Unless there were a PV that brought in an indisputable 'landslide' of say 70% or more to revoke. Labour can't bring itself to say they will categorically revoke, or even have revoke as a PV option.
The rag tag of 'remain' parties have left it too late to get themselves together. NO politician has the guts to stand up and say that leaving will be a disaster with sufficient vocal followers to get the message through to others.
Obviously violence isn't an answer but where are the weekly passive protests, the sit ins around MPs offices, or other massive demonstrations?
Who is going to come and sort the mess out?
A PV is only an UK 'internal exercise' to get an opinion from the UK citizens, it has no significance to the EU other than an indication that people in the UK are unhappy with the direction the current UK government is taking it.

Even if the UK were to revoke, the initial 'problems' of inequality, NHS funding, failure to invest outside London/SE and so on are not about to be addressed, but at the same time taxes will have to rise to cover the massive spending the UK gov has made in 'preparation'. The UK is still answering the wrong question.

LoonvanBoon · 19/06/2019 10:16

HunkyDory, so sorry you've experienced this. The referendum has had such a toxic effect in so many ways.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/06/2019 10:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Iambuffy · 19/06/2019 10:34

Spent most of yesterday in a and e with mum.

Fucking hunt.

Fucking Tories.

The NHS is in its knees.

And people my age know who is to blame.

Belindabelle · 19/06/2019 10:45

Stewart as PM
Gove as CofE

What do we think of that?

Belindabelle · 19/06/2019 10:49

Normally I don’t really like the double dream ticket idea. But as an idea purely to stop Johnstone?

DGRossetti · 19/06/2019 10:51

DGR - any PV has got to have remain on it. Otherwise the labour voters won't come back.

Tell Corbyn, not me. He's hardly demonstrated a burning desire to pull drifting voters back thus far.

ElenadeClermont · 19/06/2019 11:01

Belindabelle It could work.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 19/06/2019 11:06

UUnless there were a PV that brought in an indisputable 'landslide' of say 70% or more to revoke. Labour can't bring itself to say they will categorically revoke, or even have revoke as a PV option^

Why would revoke need a landslide of 70%+? That’s an insanely high bar.

I think Corbyn has to go for a PV. The Labour Party is screwed if they continue with their “jobs first Brexit” (what does that even mean)
I honestly don’t know if they would win a GE with a promise for a PV - but I know they are screwed if they don’t.

The public are split into backing no deal or remain. No one wants a half arsed Brexit, so they won’t vote for it.

Ellie56 · 19/06/2019 11:17

@HunkyDory69

I have been to Kingston on Thames many times as I have family there.I am Shock by your post. I had no idea such vile disgusting old bigots lived there.

I am so sorry you have been treated like this.

Peregrina · 19/06/2019 11:20

There has to be a decisive vote instead of the virtual tie last time, albeit one which was passed off as an overwhelming Leave vote. It needs to be something like 65% to 35%. Even then it won't shut up the Brexiters in the Tory party.

Icantreachthepretzels · 19/06/2019 11:42

I will return to pointing out that there is simply no point putting 'no deal' on a confirmatory vote. This is because a confirmatory vote is there to give the MPs a plan of action - the go ahead to move to the next stage - and 'no deal' does not tell them what to do. Yes crash out - then what? There is no road map. The EU have already stated the things that will be needed to sign up to in order to start negotiations (basically the W.A) but if the W.A was rejected by the people then the govt cannot sign up to those conditions - so we are in no man's land and sane people are getting angrier as food and medication shortages start to bite but the radicalised are getting no less radicalised. And even bypassing not being able to negotiate - how do they know what they are supposed to be working towards? How do they know if the trade deal qualifies as brexit or as treason in the swivel eyes of the radicalised fringe who are driving this?

If they are using a P.V to get out of the mess then they are under no obligation to offer an option that does not help clear up the mess. The only sane and viable option (and no this does not mean they'll do it - but that doesn't mean it's not the only way) is to offer TMs W.A (yes - with the backstop) vs remain. Because that is the only brexit the EU are willing to offer us - we can take it or leave it, but we are in no position to make demands.

If they are the options then absolutely no - we do not need a landslide majority either way in order to follow the outcome. The question is basically - to use Rory's analogy from last night - here is the door out of the EU, the key to it is the W.A. Do we pass the W.A and go through the door or revoke and stay in? They just need us to tell them which to do, so they can do it in good conscience.

The idea that we need a super majority in order to act is baffling. The point is it allows us to act - one way or the other - refusing to act because we didn't quite hit the 70% threshold just leaves us in the mess.

No - a close referendum won't heal the divide. There are some people - on both sides - for whom the divide is never going to be healed, even if the final result was 70% - 30%. That isn't the purpose of the referendum! The purpose is it tells us which one of two reasonably sensible options to take - we take the most popular and then we move forward. It would then - from a place of more stable footing - be the job of the government (whoever would be in power at the time) to find a way to start healing those divisions. And the best way to do that would be increased public spending on health and education and transport, a decent living wage and affordable housing. None of which comes back to the EU.

Peregrina · 19/06/2019 11:48

I think the supermajority is needed to win a political debate. At present we get "80% of people voted for parties which supported Brexit at the last election" thrown at us time after time, so we need something to counteract this.

CaveMum · 19/06/2019 11:53

Anyone following Robert Peston on Twitter? I think he’s got a man-crush on Rory!

ElenadeClermont · 19/06/2019 12:08

I will have a look Cavemum.
Another Rory crush:

"Surely Rory Stewart can't kill all four of them with just his tie wrote Financial Times features writer Henry Mance.

Consensus seems to be that he should at least try.

twitter.com/henrymance/status/1141066305606307840

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 12:13

HunkyDory 💐 Horrible you suffer that abuse

I'm also a bame female with visual & hearing disabilities
I received daily racist abuse in the 1960s, but then it died down - for me at least - in stages from the early 1970s to almost nothing in the Naughties

Horrible that racists feel emboldened to come out in the open again
Fortunately, in Germany I haven't had any such problems so far, but I worry about those still in the UK / England

Random18 · 19/06/2019 12:13

BBC didn’t do a very good check on those answering questions.

The person asking the question about Islamaphobia has a questionable background but BBC didn’t pick up on that 🙈

Basilpots · 19/06/2019 12:14

Icant unfortunately unless no deal is on the ballot paper can’t see PV getting through Parliament.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/06/2019 12:17

buffy I hope your mum is ok now
Best wishes to you both 💐

1tisILeClerc · 19/06/2019 12:20

I agree with Peregrina that there are 2 thresholds needed. A moderate majority, to be clear of 'miscounts/suspected fraudulent voting and whatever so that a clear majority is established, but that a supermajority is necessary for 'political' purposes to quash the wheedlers and whiners and the ERG.
Since all the possible candidates for PM are still telling outright lies, with the possible exception of Rory who with the best will in the world cannot deal with the backlash of anger that making the decision will unleash, whether the UK revokes or leaves.
The bloodletting needs to happen, although hopefully not in a literal sense.