Westminstenders: Johnson v Stewart

[RedToothBrush]

Debate time.

Corbyn can kiss hiss ass goodbye if he gets unconditionally behind a PV His traditional labour voters that voted for Brexit wont like that

As the majority of Labour voters are pro EU he would definitely though if he DIDNT back a PV.

On the basis that the UK will be out of the EU on 31 October, why all this talk of Corbyn? The EU are getting increasingly unlikely to grant yet another extension beyond Oct 31st as there is no sign of any political stability anywhere in the UK. There are no credible plans going forward.
EU leaders watching last night's debate will have seen that perhaps with the exception of Rory, none of the others have taken a moment's notice of what the EU have been saying since December at least, and through previous discussions vital points that have been ignored for 3 years. The UK is living on fantasy and it has to stop.

Apparently referendum that millions are asking for wouldn’t be a ‘people’s vote’ - it would be politicians telling the people they got it wrong the first time.

They have completely boxed themselves in on this one. A GE doesn't now provide a fresh mandate or otherwise May losing the last election would be taken as proof that there was no mandate for a hard Brexit and this option could have been taken off the table.

But we cant have another Referendum either. So how do we get out of this impasse?

On the basis that the UK will be out of the EU on 31 October, why all this talk of Corbyn?

Because some of us need a straw to clutch. I find that less stressful than reading the apocalyptic predictions from the doom and gloom merchants on here.

{I know this isn't due to brexit- but i wonder if there is a certain context now in which there might be political pressure to back a US company rather than Airbus.}

Boeing are American so I am not sure what your point is.
Airbus is of course an European consortium.

Having watched that "debate" I think I better understand why TM behaves as she does.
Hearing their incontinent waffle (RS generally excepted) I too would be tempted to listen stony-faced and then just do whatever I pleased. I expect most if not all male Tory politicians speak and act as those candidates do, so perhaps keeping mum and not "playing the game" was what got her eventually to the dizzy heights of PM, on the grounds that she was diligent, reasonably competent, kept herself to herself and demonstrated that she could be quite ruthless when she wanted to. I expect people were quite scared of her (makes note to self re own conduct at work).

but i wonder if there is a certain context now in which there might be political pressure to back a US company rather than Airbus.

My exact thought - US good, EU bad seems to be Govt thinking.
Never mind that there is a US President who happily insults an elected London Mayor, and no one in this country slaps him down for it. But a whiff of the same sentiment from an EU president or head of state would have had them pouring hot coals on his or her head.

{Because some of us need a straw to clutch.}
You need to look at the policies that the various 'parties' are 'promising' BEYOND Brexit. When Brexit happens it will be shit either way. The more sudden the departure the harder it will be financially, but ever revoking will still see massive cuts to 'compensate' for the outrageous spending as the UK prepares.
So the 'domestic' policies of health, crime, schools, roads, other infrastructure, employment are ALL to be discussed now. Actually leaving the EU will simply remove a massive chunk of money from the UK (by increased tariffs as much as anything) and the finance that will be necessary to reconfigure what will become the new 'normal' for the UK.

Those politicians who claim they can renegotiate the deal with the EU are not listening / being truthful. However, the EU has said in the past, admittedly before the first deadline in March, that they would consider an extension in the event of a substantive change such as a GE or 2nd referendum. A new Tory leader won't be enough but a 2nd referendum surely would? I cannot see any other option now and mightily relieved if labour goes for a PV in any circumstances....

*Gove scares me as much as Boris but in a different way. I know Gove fucked education. I have a child in primary school, step children in secondary school. Some older ones at Uni and some out the other side I have two dear neighbours who are head teachers, other good friends who are teachers. I have another friend who is a school business manager. I see tangible evidence of the chronic underfunding in state schools and absurd aspects of the Gove curriculum every day.

Yet, when Gove was speaking about his excellent education reforms it sounded plausible. It made me doubt myself.
It is terrifying, that you can know his words are fabricated spin, yet he sounded convincing. It's like being brainwashed by dystopian newspeak.*

This in buckets fills. Our education system is failing massively. I can't stomach the thought that Gove can make such a mess, then move on to be PM.
I work in education, the funding cuts are massive to LA's, to experienced improvement professionals yet in the world of school to school support and academisation so much money doled out to academy trusts with so little accountability for making a difference to children.

Even if Corbyn backs a second referendum how will it even happen ? This needs to be answered as well as all the questions on the other side of the debate. I'm fed up with meaningless soundbites from both sides.

Billysboy, many of us here are traditional labour voters. It’s in our blood.

I voted Remain. I am not keen on a PV, would rather revoke.

So which side does he lose the most votes?

Carpediem1
While I agree that is what was said many months ago the 'bar' for getting another extension has been getting ever higher and as they will have been analysing the shitshow in the UK they are unlikely to have seeen any realistic movement by UK politics in general, therefore no hope of a decisive plan. Lib/Dem might look promising as a 'remain' entity, but won't talk to each other (there should have been massive effort to get unity of remain groups starting over 2 years ago, and so far it is bugger all but kind words. Labour, WTF? and Tories, WTF also.
The UK is a political 'basket case' and as such needs putting in the corner with a blanket over it. The UK needs to exorcise it's delusions of grandeur and ask nicely when it has recovered.

According to the Times, Corbyn is about to back a PV

With remain as an option ?

Corbyn can kiss hiss ass goodbye if he gets unconditionally behind a PV His traditional labour voters that voted for Brexit wont like that

All evidence - including the election results from recent local and EP elections - suggests the opposite. A Corbyn-backed unconditional PV (with remain !) would be a vote winner. Would get 2 votes from this household.

It seems Labour Brexiteers are far less committed than their Tory counterparts. Maybe the one distinguishing feature. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say they are less committed to the Tory brexit they're being asked to swallow

When Brexit happens it will be shit either way.

This is exactly the problem. Unless you have a copy of The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch, (and I believe there aren’t many of those about) how do you know that Brexit is going to happen? So why do you keep talking about it as a foregone conclusion? The only thing keeping me going is my hope that Brexit doesn’t happen, so no, I will not be looking at policies beyond Brexit, thank you very much. If the old normal was so bad that a big chunk of the population voted for something completely insane and stupid just to get a change, I’ll delay my contemplation of the new (less money, no influence on the world stage) normal until I absolutely have to!

In all seriousness, it would be helpful for people to consider the impact of their word choices. Saying ‘if Brexit happens’ rather than ‘when Brexit happens’, or preceding a statement with ‘in my opinion’ instead of presenting it as fact doesn’t stop you from making your point, but would make so much difference to people like me who are struggling to deal with things. Of course, I’m not the thread police and everyone should be able to post as they like so I’ll stop banging on about this now and have a

Couldn't agree more **AnyaEd. My ds us at secondary school and, aside from the narrowness of the system as arts and creativity are pushed out even from the earliest school years, SEN funding and TA support are disappearing so even more pressure on teachers and children who need help are left without it. What is worse is that this Government appears to care not at all. As well as starving schools (and wider education services, Sure Start Centres, further education, post 16 allowances) of funding, they then have lied about the school funding there is including private school fees and student loans in the figures covering up the reductions in per pupil funding atctge same time as the reality of meeting government changes has pushed costs up. This is reality and the whole of my child's education, and that of his generation will have been blighted. Added to that the throwing of (don't forget) tax payers money at free schools and academies...Cross doesn't'come close!

Maybe one good thing to come of Brexit, is it is dissolving the old rosette-on-a-donkey loyalties that some parties and candidates have relied on too much in the past

Maybe dissolving is too much of a stretch.

But testing certainly.

It remains to be seen if this has a positive, negative, or meh effect in the long run .....

There are too many people calling for a PV now for it to be ignored and if that is implemented then there is still a chance that we will remain.

Don't count your chickens ... it's not too late for Corbyns unequivocal support for a PV to be restricted to one with no option for remain. Because it's the only way I could see the whole Tory party being able to stomach it.

Unless Corbyn ups the ante and tries for a GE predicated upon offering a PV so he doesn't need Tory support for it.

At which point the question needs to be which would be most appealing to pull in otherwise skittish Labour voters ? A PV with or without remain ?

And if that is how the mood of the country is being perceived, is Boris sharp enough, man enough, big enough ? to jump in with a peremptory call for a PV and no GE ?????????

It's still all to play for.

Dissolving? Nibbling away at the edges. Still, keep nibbling and eventually the whole disappears.