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Brexit

Westministenders: Another Thread, another Shit Show. Its Trump Week

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/06/2019 19:56

That is all.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 04/06/2019 16:36

Why aren't the anti foreign brigade up in arms about it?

"American" = "white" ?

tobee · 04/06/2019 16:40

Re the googling and holes in the results; I think older stories are often not searchable if people haven't written about them (much?) online since that time iyswim? EG newspaper archives etc are often not yet uploaded.

borntobequiet · 04/06/2019 16:41

I would expect there to be a certain amount of fluidity in the centre ground of politics before it coalesces.
Re millions and billions - I'd like to hear an interviewer asking a politician if he/she knows how many zeros are involved in each. I bet half of them don't know.

Littlebelina · 04/06/2019 16:48

The article bigchoc posted speculates at the end lonely and guessing (looking at the URL and what big choc posted) that it might be have been more implicit in an earlier version before it was updated post announcement.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 04/06/2019 16:50

Farage has just arrived for a meeting with Donnie...

Littlebelina · 04/06/2019 16:51

Sorry it was a Independent article I had only that was speculating a bit(but what I said about the guardian article being updated still stands)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/change-uk-split-anna-soubry-heidi-allen-leader-chuka-umunna-a8943861.html

tobee · 04/06/2019 16:58

Maud the thing about Trump meeting Farage is that will have been staged to entice the media to speculate endlessly about "what this means?", "is it giving Farage further agency?" etc etc. And they will be enticed. Angry

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 04/06/2019 17:05

Yep, agree tobee.

Two men who I fervently wish would be starved the oxygen of publicity. I think it would have been better to have not protested Trump today (and I say that as someone who joined last year's march) - ignoring the malevolent mango is a far better idea.

On another(ish) note...this is what awaits us when 'everything is on the table' post-Brexit...

Do not read this thread before eating

RedToothBrush · 04/06/2019 17:09

TORY LEADERSHIP UPDATE

Well, this is a turn up for the books.

'Mr Details' after seemingly being snubbed by Trump (who hasn't requested to see him) has just tweeted this:

Dominic Raab @DominicRaab
I want to see the UK get fair deals on trade with the US and many other countries when we leave the EU. But the NHS is not for sale to any country and never would be if I was Prime Minister.

So given he WANTS to persue no deal Brexit which obviously involves a trade deal with the US - which we won't get without the NHS being on the table, I'm a little confused.

Also:

Pippa Crerar @PippaCrerar
Raab in 2013 "We need a more level playing field, in order to expand patient choice. This could be achieved by either paying a premium or granting a tax break to private providers in recognition of the uneven playing field for pension liabilities, corporation tax & VAT purposes".

He sounds almost... worried.

Another development today, after Trump saying he thinks Jeremy Hunt would be a good PM, is that Liam Fox has backed Hunt today.

Dr Liam Fox MP @LiamFox
(1/6) I am announcing today that I will be supporting Jeremy Hunt as the next Conservative Party leader and Prime Minister.
(2/6) Throughout his career, Jeremy has a track record of achievement and he has impressed me during his time in Cabinet as Culture Secretary, Health Secretary and as an outstanding Foreign Secretary.
(3/6) Jeremy is a successful entrepreneur and instinctively understands the needs of the businesses we all rely on to deliver prosperity.
(4/6) As such, deal-making is part of his DNA - and that is the great challenge before us. We must send a strong message to the EU that we want a deal — but crucially, make clear that we are also willing to walk away without one. @Jeremy_Hunt gets that.
(5/6) As we move forward with delivering Brexit we must unite our party and our country around a wider agenda, address the division in our society and provide sensible, responsible government.
(6/6) Most importantly, we must stop the hard left extremists in the Labour Party from winning power - and I believe @Jeremy_Hunt is best placed to undertake that task. Let’s #UniteToWin.

I also note that he's said this today:

BBC Radio 4 Today @BBCr4today
International Trade Sec @LiamFox says the NHS and food standards will be protected in case of any UK-US trade deal

This does come with a cavat, that he doesn't say HOW he will protect the NHS and apparently he DOES still want American firms to have access to the NHS.

BBC Politics @BBCPolitics
Would the NHS be on the table in any UK-US trade deal post-#Brexit?

"Anything, of course, is technically on the table" says Trade Secretary Liam Fox, but "governments retain the right to regulate public services"

Trump and the US ambassador, have definitely struck a politically toxic nerve. The question seems to be how all you can square the circle of a US trade deal with protecting the NHS. Its rather like squaring the circle of the Good Friday Agreement and a deal with the EU. I suspect it'll be how do you polish a turd to sell to the public and to try and dupe parliament in the process in just the same way May tried. This is definitely an area to keep you eyes very firmly on. Particularly with regard to the detail...

Jessica Elgot @jessicaelgot
Liam Fox endorses “my friend” Jeremy Hunt. Cabinet splitting in different directions, Truss to Boris Johnson, Gauke to Rory Stewart, now Fox to Hunt.

You can all stop making the same fox Hunt joke now

The Numbers So Far

Anyway, Guido Fawkes has a handy spreadsheet of who is backing who in the leadership contest.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hLVVTLnTTPIO43qTM7GsGs5GqvQ1UVGKmd_n1B51s5M/htmlview?ts=5ce7aed7&sle=true#gid=0
Guido Spreadsheet.

It is colour coordinated with Leave / Remain MPs which is pretty useful. Its worth pointing out that about 1/3 of the party MPs were leavers compared to 2/3 remainers.

Andrea Loathsome, looks like she is definitely out of it. She has two backers so only just has enough to nominate her... So too is Rory. He's now up to four backers (Nicholas Soames, David Guake, Victoria Prentis and Ken Clarke - arguably four of the most sensible of Tories).

Poor old Esther can only better Rory by virtue of her boyfriend backing her (she's on 5). Kit Malthouse and his useless compromise doesn't seem to have done him much good. He's on 6, together with the candidate you've never heard of Mark Harper.

The Guardian is reporting this evening that in order to speed up the process, the 1922 committee is likely to change the rules to make hopefuls have a minimum of 8 nominaters.

On twelve is Matt Hancock who only has remainers backing him and no cabinet support although he does have the disgrace Damian Green (he's not going to win with that then).

Struggling on 16 is Sajid Javid who manages 4 leavers and 12 remainers. And Jeremy Wright.

On 22 is Raab. He manages 4 remainers and 18 leavers. And David Davis.

Which leaves the big three Hunt, Gove and Johnson.

The interesting thing is just how much Hunt is struggling for support from Leavers and high profile MPs. He has 25 backers but just 3 are leavers. It seems he just isn't looking credible to Leavers. Its hard to see how Liam Fox backing him gives him any more - Fox clearly saw an opportunity to get back into Cabinet in Hunt that he doesn't with the other candidates, by being a lonely leave voice. Hunt is also struggling to get the backing of many 'big names'. Looking through the list, he has the most 'bland' supporters.

Gove is on 26 and Johnson is in the lead by ten with 36.

So far 160 Tory MPs have declared their first round support (54%). With lots of ministers still sat on the fence about who they intend to back.

(Sam Gyimah and Graham Brady have no declared support at present.)

You'd have to assume if Raab is eliminated, many of his backers will go Johnson.

How an 'anyone but Boris' campaign fits into this, in the later stages is interesting - but you have to think along the lines of this: The moderates and remainers have the majority in the parliamentary party and they are the ones who will want to block Boris. So who do you vote for to block Boris if only two go through to the final run off? Logically you'd say the person running third... You have to conclude that Hunt is definitely trying to run the numbers and play the tactical card here. But Fox could be a big mistake and Hunt certainly seems to have a credibility problem in a crucial area and runs the risk if he does make it to the final two, that he looks by far and away the remain candidate against Gove.

I have to say, that although its early days Gove looks highly likely to make the run off from this. A position in the final is his to lose. Its more a question of who he will be up against...

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DGRossetti · 04/06/2019 17:14

Of course Mrs. T was the "anyone but Heath" option, as I recall ....

RedToothBrush · 04/06/2019 17:16

And James Kirkup in the Speccie, has just done a rather interesting piece:

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/06/donald-trump-has-done-britain-a-favour-with-his-nhs-grab/
Donald Trump has done Britain a favour with his NHS grab

He notes all the leadership hopefuls tripping over themselves about 'protecting the NHS' and makes the point:

Trade has become central to the Brexit story, yet is understood very poorly.

Far too much of our trade debate talks about largely irrelevant things like personal relationships between leaders, and ignores fundamental issues of national economic interest. Put another way: countries don’t do trade deals because politicians like (or dislike) each other.

Another thing we largely overlook: the EU is a trade deal, the biggest, deepest one the world has ever seen. And trade deals mean compromises: the more access I give you to my markets, the greater the say I want over the shared rules that will govern the production and exchange of the products that will be traded.

And this is where we need to keep our eyes open, cos I'm sure Fox will be just fine about this,

You will find that document is rather light on references to the “Special Relationship”, our “shared history” and all the other nice words that politicians like to use about UK-US relations. It is heavy with demands and conditions, things that the US would seek to impose on Britain in exchange for making is easier for some British firms to sell some things in the US.

That document, incidentally, suggests that the US probably wouldn’t be that interested in the NHS itself: contracts to administer and run NHS services are relatively small beer. Much more attractive from a US corporate perspective is the NHS drug budget; some US pharma firms believe NHS rules unfairly exclude their products from purchase by NHS bodies. That’s probably why the USTR objectives paper doesn’t mention health services, but does mention “Procedural Fairness for Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices” and promises to “seek standards to ensure that government regulatory reimbursement regimes are transparent, provide procedural fairness, are nondiscriminatory, and provide full market access for U.S. products.”

OP posts:
jasjas1973 · 04/06/2019 17:18

The contenders will say whatever they think will win member/MP votes and then do what they like once PM/Leader.

Given the Govt has many different private companies within the NHS, why not UnitedHealth Group?
So of course the NHS and anything else the Americans want will be fair game.

tobee · 04/06/2019 17:42

So apparently my MP is currently supporting Matt Hancock. Not the worst. Not very surprised.

DGRossetti · 04/06/2019 17:55

Isn't there a Thing about the pace of creating new medicines simply slowing down ? Which coupled with expiring patents means there's a squeeze on "big pharma" (maybe explaining the sudden love for cannabis, after decades of disdain ?)

Cailleach1 · 04/06/2019 18:12

Is the alliance between the US and the UK the greatest alliance the world has ever seen? Not quite sure if this was only referring to WWII or in general.

The US came into the war after Pearl Harbour. Is the alliance outcome due to events taken out of its context? Just interested as to what people think. From the speech with May. When he mentioned Brexit, she looked a bit PTSD. If only they could always be the goodies and everyone else on the planet be Nazi Germany, in the beginning and forever and ever.

RedToothBrush · 04/06/2019 18:20

Every journalist should be asking all the Tory leadership contenders what the UK is prepared to compromise on for a trade deal with the US.

Sovereignty, the NHS, food standards?

What is it?

Cos every trad

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RedToothBrush · 04/06/2019 18:20

Cos every trade deal involves a compromise....

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Clavinova · 04/06/2019 18:33

millions or was it billions of U.K. citizens working for US companies in the US and here...and billions of US citizens working for U.K. companies - reciprocity etc - what was all that about?

I think the figure I heard was 1 million - confirmed here;

"Not only are both nations top foreign employers of each other– each employing approximately 1 million citizens from one another– but are also top collaborators for science and innovation, as well as top tourist destinations too."

www.xendpay.com/countries/usa/moving-uk-usa-pursuing-american-dream

I also heard that Boris Johnson had a 20 minute phone conversation with Donald Trump today.

ContinuityError · 04/06/2019 18:33

Saw earlier on Twitter that Trump’s comments on the NHS had done a big favour to the Remain cause.

Our health insurance premiums in the US were significantly increased to cover me for pregnancy.

Yet another way to discriminate against women (although I understand it will be calculated on an actuarial basis).

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2019 18:33

Raab ...

In their 2012 book, "Britannia Unchained"
Raab & Patel revealed what they really think of British workers and hint at what they intend to do to them:

“Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world.
We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.”

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2019 18:35

Don't forget another phone call by Boris ...

Recorded phone call of Boris conspiring to get someone beaten up

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/darius-boris-and-a-blast-from-the-past-1658043.html

BigChocFrenzy · 04/06/2019 18:38

Reminder of US demands re the FTA:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/uk-has-much-fear-us-trade-agreement

American Ambassador Woody Johnson’s comment to <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/us-wants-access-to-nhs-in-post-brexit-deal-ambassador-to-uk-says" target="_blank">Andrew Marrr*r on Sunday that healthcare would need to be on the table in any future trade talks
only served to make agreeing a fully-fledged deal all the more difficult.

That the US will drive a hard bargain in any future negotiation with the UK should come as no surprise.

Only the EU, and perhaps China, have the economic heft to negotiate on near-level terms with the Americans,
< hence why Trump & US oligarchs want to destroy the EU >
and even they struggle.

The US’s objectives for its negotiation with the UK were published in <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf" target="_blank">February

  • and with the caveat that they were largely produced for a domestic American audience, shorn of all notion of compromise - are strikingly ambitious in their demands.

For example:
alongside normal talk of tariff and quota removal,

the UK must jettison food hygiene rules that currently restrict US exports of beef, pork, chicken and dairy;

rules stipulating which products qualify for tariff-free treatment under the agreements must specifically incentivise production on US territory;

and the agreement should include a mechanism allowing for the US to take appropriate action if the UK negotiates an agreement with a “non-market economy” (see: China).
....
US demands regarding reimbursement regimes for pharmaceuticals and medical devices give greater cause for thought.

The US has long taken issuee* with the fact that the NHS’s approach to drug procurement

  • where it makes its own assessment as to the fair value of the drugs it buys - pulls down prices worldwide. ..... due to the NHS’s global significance and market power, the incentives for the US to push the UK harder are more pronounced. ..... The UK is not the end-game for the US. Its ultimate ambition is to open up the bigger EU market.

For the UK to move to a more American approach would set a regional precedent, grant the US a regulatory foothold in the EU’s backyard, and push back against the EU’s increasingly global regulatory hegemony.

Piggywaspushed · 04/06/2019 18:39

Peterborough prospectives on my local news now. Mike Greene is attempting to talk about education. He repeated what the Tory said really. He was not asked about immigration and education, interestingly , but the LibDem was.

Piggywaspushed · 04/06/2019 18:39

Good heavens : there's an SDP candidate!

Clavinova · 04/06/2019 18:41

Don't forget another phone call by Boris
I might - it was 30 years ago.