Westministenders: Another Thread, another Shit Show. Its Trump Week

[RedToothBrush]

That is all.

The US has long taken issue with the fact that the NHS’s approach to drug procurement
- where it makes its own assessment as to the fair value of the drugs it buys -
pulls down prices worldwide.

BCF

The irony being that this is Walmart's business model, one that is celebrated in US Republican circles.

voting by proxy somehow sits uncomfortably with me.
attending in person verified by id would be the ideal imo.
I still don't quite get why so many in uk are opposed to it. it's standard almost everywhere else

Isn't the opposition more to do with the cost of obtaining ID as there are loads of people who literally have nothing which can be used? Many other countries have ID cards as standard so it's not so much of an issue in those places.

ID for voting disenfranchises poor people the most.

an id card can be very cheap.
in the country I live in now it is mandatory to carry id at all times and the official id card (bank card format) is free (apart from the time you need to go to the office to apply for one).

how do you even open a bank account without photo id? don't the banks need to do thorough checks as part of their regulations? renting a property? again regulation require checks by landlord.

Yes, but we don't have a mandatory free ID card here. That's the problem.

And no, you can open a bank account online without photo ID as your identity can be verified electronically.

I've no idea how they'd pass a right to rent check actually. Maybe they just try not to move house? (Not being flippant; I genuinely don't know what they'd do.)

I've had loads of clients without photo ID over the years though. And I still have the occasional one without a bank account.

Had an awful thought yesterday.

It was 150 days to Halloween (Brexit Day); with Mrs May's departure and the election of a new Conservative leader, followed by the summer recess towards the end of July, then it's conference season during September.

And then it will be a month to Brexit. Time is ticking, blink and it will be the begining of October.

We were given six months by the EU27 and told not to waste it.

Oh dear.

Isn't the opposition more to do with the cost of obtaining ID as there are loads of people who literally have nothing which can be used?

So what do they do if they need to collect a parcel from the sorting office? Ours won’t hand things over unless you have ID for the person whose name is on the package.

You don't need photo ID to collect from the Post Office. You can use a bank card or official letter, so bills or benefits etc.

There are swathes of people out there without photo ID, however.

Yonks ago when I dealt with a matrimonial case as a legal sec, a client had a large payout to collect from our offices. She lived in the village and I had written to her asking her to bring in her passport or other photo ID to collect the cheque. She turned up with no less than 5 of her ex husband's credit cards , no passport or photo ID. When I apologised that I wasn't able to hand over the money until she returned with her own ID she went beserk and told me she would wait outside the offices that evening and stab me! This was back around 2003 and it was clearly a stressful situation. However it taught me to never underestimate how few people have photo ID and their rage when told they therefore have to apply for it. (She did have a passport but for some reason was very angry at having to walk home to get it!).

I think given the immigration concerns of a large chunk of the country, ID cards will have to be the way forward. I think the main concern is what data is connected to the card; what could be 'stolen' if the card is.

Drivers licences have a photo.

Mship.
I had a glass of red and went for a walk. Warm sunshine and twitter (the feathery types that fly around). Brexit disappears.

A few years back the whole idea of photo-ID was on the agenda. It was being marketed to the public as a counter-terrorism device. I remember a former senior policeman saying:

A terrorist won't use his ID, he'll use yours.

There will be a huge market in stolen and fake IDs.

I would be very skeptical if photo-IDs were introduced, especially in regards to voting. I'd see it as nothing more than the purposeful disenfranchisement of the poor. It would only take a handful of votes in some of the marginals to swing an election.

Driving licences are only valid for 10 years and cost £14 to replace. Ironically, I think that was because they were being used as a back door way towards ID cards for all (along with the massive increase in the cost of passports). "Helpfully" , the DVLA says that they can use your digital passport photo so you don't need to send one in. As long as you provide them with your debit/credit card details for the fee

A lot of people who live in cities don't have driving licenses. There is nowhere for them to keep a car and little incentive to learn to drive.

I remember that too Cackleweb. I do think that it works in other countries, although am no expert! For those of you abroad who have one, are there any obvious advantages or issues? I suppose I think if one is faked then the unknown is suddenly a legal citizen with any background illegalities washed away...but how easy are they to forge and how common is that? I suspect the answer is we simply don't know?

Up until last year DH didn't have any photo id. He doesn't drive (medically not allowed) and didn't have a passport. We did have a bit of an issue when we bought this house but eventually they accepted his work pass with a supporting letter. That was only accepted as he works for the civil service so it counted as government id- although the only thing on it that was vaguely official looking was an instruction printed on the rear saying it should be handed into a police station if found. Not sure it would be acceptable now.

DH has a well paid, professional role. If he would have struggled to provide voter id I can easily imagine there would be others who would be disenfranchised by id being required. DH would have been able to afford to get a passport if it was needed (He eventually got one last year so he could take an internal flight to go to a cricket match) but not everyone would be able to.

Posted too soon.

Of course, driving licences are not the answer. Not everyone has one - and the fact that it costs to keep them up-to-date is also not equitable - especially given that old paper licences were/are valid until you're 70

First licence also costs more than the renewal.

Plus not everyone can get a driving licence: I have a friend whose 25 year old daughter is registered blind (no peripheral vision) but has to take her passport with her everywhere if she wants to drink, as she looks very young.

Ds (18) has to use both his provisional licence and his student card, as they won't accept just the one form of ID. Before he got his provisional, he had to take his passport with him to night clubs as they wouldn't accept just the student card - even if he had his Young Scot card with (which is also photo ID with DoB)

I'm one of those without a photo ID. I don't have a passport, nor a driving licence.

My DP and I wanted to set up a joint bank account for direct debits (we both have individual accounts) but at the moment I cannot as I don't have proof of ID! So DP has the account on his own until such time as I can get the relevant documents. I asked my GP if she can verify who I am but no, they don't do that now apparently as she can't confirm that I am who I say I am! It's a very weird feeling!

Luckily we do not rent, the house and mortgage is in DP's name only. I may as well not exist! Sometimes I have a parcel at the Post office with customs charges, but that seems to be ok as I can get it delivered by paying whatever charge there is online, then reorganising delivery.

I am housebound, that's the issue for me. I really need to get passport photos in some shape or form, then I can renew my passport and become real again instead of a hologram!

pretty I think all that actually makes a case for an inexpensive, easily accessible, universally accepted form of id card.

Anyone see that Liam Fox has endorsed Hunt for Conservative leader?

Women in MiL's generation rarely have a driving licence and some if them do not have passports. Several oldies told me that people over 80 do not need a passport to cross the border. I do not know where they get this from. Bearing in mind the views they hold about immigration.

Drivers licences have a photo.

Yep. But not everyone has one.

I agree - yet so many people seem to think that the driving licence "would do"

Part of the problem is that - as DGR so often points out - the UK seems to be incapable of doing "simple". It would over-spec the project (as it did when passports were moving towards being integrated with IDs - which is where I'm sure the sharing of photos between the DVLA and the Passport Office comes from even though they wouldn't use my 4 year old photo yet are happy to use dh's 8 year old one ) and try to incorporate a massive and complicated database behind the ID cards

Iirc, a provisional licence costs £23 - but there are further costs to convert it to a full licence.

{For those of you abroad who have one, are there any obvious advantages or issues?}
As a credit size card it can be carried much more easily than a passport so not an 'imposition' in a physical sense.
Deliveries (UPS etc) often require ID before handing stuff over.
If you happened to be stopped by police, you are able to determine who you are 'instantly' and as I suspect most 'incidents' where people might be checked, they have a pretty good idea who they are looking for, you can go on your way within minutes.
For people who still use cheques (still common in France) they are used for ID by supermarkets.

The only reservation I would have is to actually carry one ALL the time.

As a thought, when the IRA 'remodelled' Manchester Arndale centre, how much did that cost and if having ID would provide a reasonable approach to reducing the risk of terrorism and fraud it would seem reasonable to me.
Obviously no system is perfect as even if half the UK were 'security forces', statistically a certain percentage of those will be 'bad apples'.

As this train of thought started with voting, it is not beyond the wit of 'man' to use domestic bills or whatever to prove ID at a polling station. It would take a concerted effort to get a significant number to really 'swing' a vote and as DGR would probably point out, even if your candidate of choice gets in, they are still unlikely to actually carry out what they promised during campaigning.
There will always be cheats in the system.

Just to be clear: I'm not in favour of compulsory ID cards. I was actually pointing out the driving licences, which are what are often used as de facto ID cards, are not "free".

And while we (as in dh) can afford the £14 renewal fee, we are privileged and have the spare cash. If you're counting every penny, and needed to find that amount for everyone in the household, then it's not so accessible.

Driving licences are just one example. Many companies have photo ID which could also be 'permitted' as a verifier for voting.

When we were in Texas you could get a non-drivers driving licence to use as photo ID from the local license office.