To ask Remainers ...

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Your views?

Brexiteers were asked their reasons the other day. So I would like to ask Remainers

• what do you think will happen, and what are you so afraid of?

Climate change will not 'destroy' the earth, but it will mean that habitable areas for humans and existing wildlife will diminish. Some will adapt but many will die out.
The sun heats up the earth (as a planet) but since space is a vacuum, the heat that arrives cannot 'leave' the earth as efficiently as it arrives, so although very happy to be corrected, ultimately it will get gradually hotter although well after our lifetime.

Also the narrative from some leavers is about how constrained we are by the eu and how they tell us what we can and can't do yet there are massive differences amongst the eu members like the legalisation of all drugs in Portugal.

Climate change is not caused by space being a vacuum - if it was the basis of the phenomenon that would be an argument against man-made climate change and would support the position of climate change deniers. Heat won't conduct through a vacuum but it will radiate. If a vacuum prevented heat escaping the earth it would also prevent heat arriving from the sun.

Climate change is a result of an accumulation of Greenhouse Gases (mostly CO2, but others too) as a result of human activity. These are gases that act as an insulator and reduce the radiation of heat into space. There are also reinforcing feedback loops, e.g. ice cover. Ice and snow reflect heat and help the cooling side of the equation. But as the earth warms the ice cover reduces and reflects less heat. Melting permafrost as the temperature rises releases methane, which is even more powerful greenhouse gas then CO2.

Within the EU the UK has been very involved in implementing measures to reduce climate change through reducing carbon emissions (and emissions of other greenhouse gases). As EU members we participate in a large number of schemes that encourage/support business to reduce emissions of CO2, F-gases, etc. through changing technologies and improving efficiency. One of the effects of Brexit was included in the woes of British Steel. With all the uncertainty over Brexit they were left in limbo on emissions trading and couldn't claim the credits they were due. This was the reason for the first (justifiable, because it's guaranteed they'll get the credits eventually) loan from the government. They won't be the only business left with a cashflow shortfall due to this.

DogInATent
As you indicate, 'heat' energy arrives and departs by either conduction, convection or radiation, for which being in a vacuum limits it to radiation.
As you say, man's interference has altered the rate at which this is occurrence affects the Earth.
Massive population rise and industrial activity have 'simply' shifted natural occurrences into higher gear. Exploitation of 'cheap labour' and disregard for excessively damaging industrial processes just makes things worse. CFCs banned in the West are still being used in China 'illegally' although it remains to be seen if clamping down will affect their use.

I'm not against Brexit due to fear. Still, to list bad things from Brexit I don't want, I'm thinking of...

Pessimism & poverty, both Material & cultural. Insularity. Xenophobia.

Angry People winning every political argument. Merits & evidence don't matter, just who is most angry. Most Angry wins.

Difficulty getting spare parts or good quality items at good prices.

Food and products being poorly regulated, not as safe, more polluting, less durable, less fit for purpose.

Loss of high standards (business, science, politics, law)

Mob rule. Judges being called The Enemies of The People because they followed legal principles & due process.

Regular bombs in London again due to The Troubles.

Poor pay, poor equipment & facilities in the public sector due to declining GDP & tax revenue (me, DS & DD all have or will have jobs in public sector).

ContinuityError - so what? It is illogical to assume: 1. that person is lying about what he witnessed 2. The Telegraph is a bad source.

Or are you saying because I read the Telegraph (as well as the Guardian, The New Yorker, The Washington Post ) - I am not to be trusted??? Seriously, drop the hostile ad hominem BS that alienates so many people from Remainer concerns, and debate the facts like everyone else. We have been having such a good exchange of views here. People talking calmly and reasonably.

Mark Francis said this: "no deal on October 31 – which is the one thing the European Union have been frightened of all along. They are genuinely terrified of a free-trading, global Britain that they cannot control or box in through stultifying regulations – and which could out-compete their fossilising economic model in the future."

Brexit is a rational economic response.

The hard border (which is why ContinuityError's sneering is irrelevant, because that point was what the quote was covering) is a non-issue. UK wouldn't do it, Ireland wouldn't do it, - so who would do it?

is a non-issue

It’s an enormous issue and you know that.

UK wouldn't do it, Ireland wouldn't do it, - so who would do it?

WTO will require it.

ScreamingLadySutch

You C&Ped a puff piece from a Telegraph article (although you didn’t actually reference it), which is in no way unbiased when it comes to all things Brexit. You may see it as “sneering” or “an ad hominem attack” to point out that with a Tory leadership / PM election underway then the hopefuls are going to use every trick in the box to gain an advantage with their ore audience.

But well done in calling the UK border on the Island of Ireland a “non-issue” as that is exactly the kind of hostile BS that alienates Remain voters.

Interesting how many of these responses are negative, pessimistic, based on fear. So much speculation and fear of the unknown.

And what has struck me most during this whole debate, most of the Remain argument is based on economic reasons. What saddens me is that so few can think beyond the economy to the bigger picture.

My Leave vote was for political reasons.

And the NI thing is exaggerated. I live in Northern Ireland, I voted Leave and I don't think there will be a return to the Troubles.

And the NI thing is exaggerated. I live in Northern Ireland, I voted Leave and I don't think there will be a return to the Troubles.

Oh well that’s okay then

Return of The Troubles, break up of the United Kingdom, massive recession,. We need a new government to stand up and say it is simply not worth the risk and revoke article 50

The OP asked what we were afraid of so it’s fairly logical that our reasons are based on fear. Or did you not bother to read the OP, @Mamamary?

Most people worried about NI and the GFA don't actually live here.

Most people worried about NI and the GFA don't actually live here

Well more people live in the UK than NI. Do you have a point beyond that?

Everyone I know in NI is immensely worried about it and with excellent reason.

{They are genuinely terrified of a free-trading, global Britain that they cannot control or box in through stultifying regulations}
Taken from 'Screaming'.

He is deliberately conflating several things for the benefit of his largely leave audience.
Yes the rest of Europe is pretty pissed off by the attitudes of the UK and yes it will take a big hit financially BUT the EU is not the one leaving and has it's FTAs with the major players in the world, with goods it wants whereas the UK will have NONE to begin with and will struggle to make any valuable deals in the commodities the UK needs within the next 7 years or more. This is a long time in a world that is changing ever faster and the UK will be well behind the curve.

I did read the OP, and that's a fair point Alsohuman, but I guess this thread has just reiterated to me how well Project Fear worked.

It would be nice to see some positive reasons, but most of those thay are cited (employment rights, promotes peace) are issues that were already served either by Westminster (which historically was at the forefront of the world in workers' rights) or other existing institutions. The EU has become big, unwieldly, unaccountable and unreformable. That's why I voted Leave.

I was in two minds but ultimately thought we are better leaving a corrupt institution. The fact that we still haven't left and that democracy has not been honoured is very concerning. The sneering attitudes of Remainers and their undemocratic impulses have been horrible to watch. I welcome Sajid Javid's words today - to revoke Article 50 would do untold damage and threaten the very foundations of democracy.

Revoking Article 50 would be the best outcome possible in N Ireland where the majority voted Remain. Same in Scotland.

The 'troubles' in NI have not gone away, as there are those who wish to perpetuate them and the underlying issues that make it more of a problem, the shortage of good paying jobs, inadequate welfare and so on will continue to foster resentment.

What saddens me is that so few can think beyond the economy to the bigger picture.

A thriving economy is the 1 before all the 0s

{What saddens me is that so few can think beyond the economy to the bigger picture.}

Although many look at the EU as an 'financial' exercise it's roots are equally about people, and finding ways to improve the lives of all. Obviously this cannot be done without money so it is a 2 pronged approach.
If you look at the EU as only a 'monetary' exercise you are missing more than half the picture.
Of course it is not perfect, trying to 'satisfy' 500 million people will always have a good percentage unsatisfied, but the importance is the will to make things better.

The hard border (which is why ContinuityError's sneering is irrelevant, because that point was what the quote was covering) is a non-issue. UK wouldn't do it, Ireland wouldn't do it, - so who would do it?

Leavers who keep on thinking this are not only completely ignorant, because they have not bothered to educate themselves on the facts in that last 3 years, but are the reason this mess is being dragged out.

If you want to leave that’s fine, but be fucking realistic about what it entails.

What’s the ‘bigger picture’ we should be focusing on anyway?

Kicking all the foreigners out? Returning to the glory days of the 1890s when we did what we want? Freedom from bendy bananas?

No. Revoking Article 50 when parliament passed it to honour a democratic decision would be highly irresponsible and threaten our political system to the core.

Does democracy mean anything at all? It frightens me that people are so blasé about it. Such a lack of respect for people that disagree with them and a willingness to ride roughshod over the majority just to get one's own way. It is immature, arrogant, and so, so shortsighted.

The UK as a whole voted to Leave so we must leave. End of. The European elections, which should never have happened, were an endorsement of leave. To ask for another 'people's vote' is an insult.

If, at any point, under the terms of the GFA, there is a border poll and the majority of people in NI and ROI vote to unite, I will respect that decision too. That's called democracy. It's currently under threat globally but the last three years have been the most concerning for Britain.

mamamary your arguments are beyond basic.

As I said above, if the majority still want to leave, based on the actual reality of what it entails, then fine, but don’t keep harping on about democracy when one of the key factors in a democracy is the ability to change ones mind.

Beyond basic? Your words simply confirm the sneering and superior attitude we've come to expect from Remainers.

Who has changed their mind??