To ask Remainers ...

[ScreamingLadySutch]

Your views?

Brexiteers were asked their reasons the other day. So I would like to ask Remainers

• what do you think will happen, and what are you so afraid of?

Don’t think being ‘independent’ will necessarily give a more agile response.

I don’t ❣ Europe. But it’s better to be in the union than out, safety in numbers.

The father of my child is Eu National and the uncertainty is weighing on us (many of those applying for settled status are encountering real problems- the system is new and not working brilliantly).

Opportunities for our children - well those who can’t get an EU nationality have had the rug pulled out from under them. Yes, I worked abroad before schengen so it can be done BUT it was a faff.

Eu needs us - lol lol lol. Ok, a company in France needs an engineer. You can employ a Brit but there will be extra admin and (possibly costs) or you can more easily recruit from the talented pool of 27 countries. Do the math.

Yes, xenophobia is rearing it’s head here - disgraceful comments (but also heard same in Eu countries for YEARS - a mass of small and provincial nations). Let’s not got down that route - we are a successful global society (not perfect, but pushing forward) that commands some respect in the world. Why undo that?

I don’t trust any uk govt to extract us from the EU.

Many years ago when everyone I knew had a cleaner from the EU - I noticed an arrogance and complacency and I predicted that IF we were not careful, our grandchildren will be sneaking themselves into other countries illegally to clean houses to earn money they can’t here. This is my fear and I think we’ve taken a step towards that. Our education system increasingly favours the few, so many more people are marginalised and this will now increase.

My df just said that if he were young now, he’d be looking to leave (not necessarily the EU but Asia/South America etc).

Too many pressure points.

The timing - new Tory leader - seems that Tory MPs dislike and distrust Boris BUT want to keep their jobs and feel he’s the person to face off Farage, and Tory voters love Boris sooooo, again, all party politics while the country goes down the pan.

My reasons are all already voiced by others above. As an EU national who has spent a decade here working and contributing it also feels like a personal kick in the teeth (I get a lot of “You’re alright, it’s the other folk we don’t like”, which is as comforting as a cactus blanket). And the shit trundled out by the Leave campaign isn’t something I’ll ever forgive.

Breakdown of Good Friday Agreement by imposition of a hard border. Return to "troubles" throughout the UK.

Increased pressure for Scottish Independence.

Loss of educated professionals (like doctors) who can easily get visas to go abroad.

Loss of current NHS employees who have immigrated from the EU (Consultant surgeons down to HCAs)

Blue passports, queues at borders

Ferry contracts awarded to local takeaway company

Massive reduction in car industry production and investment in the uk

The only counter-argument I can see here is 'it won't be that bad' as opposed to listing the benefits. There are still NO benefits as far as I can see to leaving. Not for our jobs, the economy, for trade, for health, for travel, for skilled immigration or for our children.

And saying that you want to Leave because you think Remainers are up themselves is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Who puts their future life and security in jeopardy over something so petty?!

There are developing markets out there...

. I've been living and breathing Brexit as part of my job for the last 18 months. The impact to my firm is huge and they are spending millions on preparation. Business has been moved abroad so that they can carry on trading, because if the UK leaves with no deal then the business will fail - it's as simple as that. At this point the best case scenario for Brexit is that it's soft and only a few hundred people will be made redundant, rather than a hard Brexit and thousands being out of work. The board is absolutely open about the fact that they are praying it doesn't happen and that Article 50 is revoked.

And that's one firm. IMO Brexit is the UK's economic suicide note. No wonder young people are angry and disillusioned - they've been royally fucked. Tuition fees, rising economic inequality, no job security, zero hours contracts, housing inaccessible for many due to prices, crappy pensions with a retirement age that will only get further away, a completely buggered up environment with climate change now a real and serious emergency, and now fewer rights within the EU than their parents and grandparents have enjoyed.

Interesting that virtually every post here gives rational, tangible concerns which is very different to every thread asking Leavers the same thing, which is only ever filled with Leavers finding every excuse in the book not to give any reasons.

Says it all really

Screaming - Dominic Raab's version of the discussions on the Irish border is a sack of shit questionable. This Twitter Thread by the Telegraph's Europe correspondent (so not some Remain-y pearl clutcher) spells it all out.

I think the Op is yet another well if WE'RE not putting in a border and THEY'RE not putting in a border then what's the issue? type . You know what Sutch? It's been explained to death and if leavers still don't grasp it it's because they're either unwilling or incapable.

And for the record, I voted Remain to maintain the GFA and because we are a small fish in a big pond. If we leave, we will be desperate for trade agreements and bigger, more powerful countries will have us over a barrel. Being part of the EU has been fantastic for us economically and socially and environmentally and for our peace and prosperity. I also wanted to avoid the sort of crap that many, many EU nationals have had to deal with over the past three years.

Those were my reasons at the time, but ever since the result came through, there have been hundreds of others.

If you’ve watched any of the Brexit rallies, it’s sickening to see seemingly decent ordinary people, many of them pensioners but not exclusively, chanting farage’s name and enthusing about him. They just come across as gulliable and politically naive. They trust him implicitly and are completely taken in by his anti-establishment yet jingoistic rabble rousing propaganda. For many it’s provided them with a new found passion in life - just listen to that misplaced animosity and vitriol they direct at the Eu- they actually think they are socking it to the establishment by demanding a no deal, so imagine their anger when the whole thing is an absolute disaster. They will undoubtedly be expecting changes to society but not necessarily those that a provided by a load of old fashioned disaster capitalists

What's already happened is bad enough. Businesses have folded. A Polish shop in my area was targetted the day after the vote and set on fire.

The exchange rate is crap, so foreign holidays are more expensive. Ditto products from European countries.

Millions and millions of pounds have been spent in House of Commons time and MPs and May trying to find a deal.

The peace that's existed since we became a part of Europe could be threatened.

A hard border with Ireland would be disastrous.

There are many, many reasons why Brexit is a bad idea, and has already cost so much that it will take years to recoup that (if ever).

Funnily enough, all I saw on the previous thread was Leavers complaining about abuse from Remainers, not giving any proper answers themselves.

I agree with most of the above. Just looking at the waste of money makes me weep. We are living in a country where millions (including many children) are in poverty and we are throwing away money (over £100 MILLION so far)on preparing for a process that even those who want and support it agree will make us poorer for the next few decades. It is truly beyond belief.

ScreamingLadySutch

apparently this happened between Dominic Raab and Michael Bernier

You mean you cut and pasted from an article in the Torygraph by Raab’s SPAD. How timely, given that Raab is trying to convince the Tory faithful that he needs to be the next PM.

(Should specify £100m is just OUR money the government has spent on Brexit consultants. A lot more has been spent by private individuals and businesses. A lot has been spent by businesses and governments on the continent. I sometimes wonder how we would be reacting if it were France leaving and forcing us to spend millions to mitigate their actions?)

And the Government's advisory white papers offering 'guidance' have been fucking laughable. Pearls of wisdom such as businesses should consider what action needs to be taken in the event that the UK leaves with no deal

Over 95% of business in the UK are SMEs. Not many can afford to spaff (as dear Boris so eloquently put it) money on management consultants and legal fees for something intangible and completely unknown.

The UK is losing investment. It's losing its place in the forefront of medicine stocks, pharmaceuticals, financial services, negotiating power. The only people who are benefiting from Brexit are the rich - who simply get richer.

The UK is spending nearly double the number on the bus at least and that was £350 Million a week.
I think about £60 Billion has been spent over the 3 years. EU membership 'costs' around £10 Billion a year (0.7% of the UK GDP).

And the irony is that in order to continue to trade with the EU, the UK will need to continue to meet its requirements (such as the GDPR and the forthcoming Fifth Anti-Money Laundering Directive, which the UK Treasury has confirmed will go ahead).

In essence we are giving up all of the rights we currently have to shape and create policy, in return for having to abide by rules that we will have no say over. Sovereignty indeed.

I think that a lot of the UK's biggest problems stem from Westminster rather than Brussels. I think that if we never joined the EU, then we'd live in a country where North and South was even more polarized in terms of investment etc.

I worry that without the EU we'll have China and the US making us their bitch. Trump wants to sell the NHS overpriced pharmaceuticals and for the UK to lower standards and buy poor quality food etc The Chinese could easily demand visas for a trade deal. Being part of a bigger bloc protects us from Russia too. I fear that moving away from the EU will mean a privatized NHS and more extreme policies like Zero Hour Contracts. Farage thinks that the NHS should move to an insurance based system.

I fear that No Deal Brexit will be worse for the majority than austerity. Tarriffs and uncertainty will lead to higher prices of necessities like food. Our country depends on EU trade- eg the import of sewage purification chemicals which can't be stockpiled. Considering how few trade deals are in place, I think it's only natural to worry about utilities.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45657966

And even more ironical is that in order to continue to trade with the EU, the UK will still need to address the issues in the withdrawal agreement - NI, EU citizens and financial commitments.

Although, I for one, won’t be at all unhappy if Farage is denied his MEP salary, severance pay and pension in the event of the full Brexiteer No Deal fiasco.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1133966733486755840?refsrc=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1133966733486755840&reff_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelondoneconomic.com%2Fnews%2Fwatch-tory-leadership-candidate-rory-stewart-candidly-explain-why-no-deal-brexit-on-wto-terms-is-a-disaster-and-anyone-who-says-otherwise-is-lying%2F30%2F05%2F

In the run up to the ref. I saw that almost all economists thought Brexit would be harmful

My reasons are similar to the above, really.

No one has claimed that the EU is perfect, but I strongly believe we are better off as an EU member with an equal voice and a vote, than as a sidekick to the USA, China or Russia. We are no longer a superpower and the specific set of circumstances that enabled us to be one (for a while), no longer exist. We did retain a disproportionate amount of influence on the world stage, but this is ebbing away now.

We will never get a better deal than the one we currently have with the EU, and leaving won’t just make us poorer, but weaker, with less influence and bargaining power.

I don’t want to see US healthcare companies take over the NHS (and believe me, they have been trying to force their way in for years).

I don’t want to see our food safety laws, employment rights, health and safety legislation, environmental protection laws and access to healthcare reduced to US standards for the sake of a trade deal. The EU has done much to protect us from our own politicians.

I want my child to have the option to live, work, study and retire in any of 28 countries and not be stuck in the UK regardless of how the above pans out.

I want EU freedom of movement to continue to enrich this country (and not just financially). I’m particularly concerned about the numbers of healthcare workers who have left. Why would they want to stay where their spouses and children aren’t welcome? How will the NHS cope without them?

I want the UK to continue to play a key role in international research projects.

I don’t want the fragile peace in Northern Ireland to be threatened.

I don’t want the UK to gradually decline, while disaster capitalists pick over our remaining assets and distract us by scapegoating foreigners/the EU/the poor/young people/remainers. When will we ever learn?

What am I most concerned about...

Cost of living going up.

The NHS getting ever more strained until it breaks and we end up with a US-style insurance system.

Less research funding, resulting in the UK's decline into mediocrity where we have been world class.

As climate change escalates, the UK will be in a weaker position financially to prepare for future events and to repair damage done by extreme weather events.

Continuation of the divisions in our society which will be worsened by the economic decline, whilst the poor get even poorer and more numerous.

I could go on... but I really, really hope I am wrong.

I feel similarly about Brexit as I do about climate change - I would LOVE to be proved wrong about it. It would be brilliant if climate change turned out to be nothing to worry about, and Brexit also - if we crash out with no deal and none of the bad things forecast happen I will hold my hands up and say I was wrong. But I really don’t think that is likely

{I think that a lot of the UK's biggest problems stem from Westminster rather than Brussels.}

ALL of the problems in the UK are entirely the responsibility of the government in Westminster, and always have been as the UK always was and still is a sovereign state.

Even laws that the UK shares with the EU it is down to UK authorities to administer and police them.
The UK could refuse to implement laws that were agreed with the EU and eventually the EU could take the UK to court to settle the issues, as happens from time to time, but this process takes years, by which time a practical resolution may have been found.
If you commit a crime somewhere in an EU country, it will be a UK policeman that appears on your doorstep.