No Deal Brexit - Bring it on

[Bearbehind]

It’s economic suicide but there’s clearly no other way to demonstrate to Leavers what a shit show this all is.

Leavers resolutely refuse to listen to anything negative after 3 years, so fuck it.

I feel for those who woukd be affected by it but I didn’t cause it.

The irony is there’s not a Tory MP with the guts he cone PM and then to do it - so this mess will go on indefinitely.

{That is some messed up priorities from the EU.}
Not if you look at the situation the right way around.
The EU and the USA will do whatever is necessary to prevent a border across the Island of Ireland.
Their 'backstop plan' is that it will be the Irish sea.
Ultimately, probably with a lot of wailing by the UK, the two together will make this happen. The UK is in a straitjacket effectively so it can either wriggle and scream, or accept this and work on other aspects.
Random Leavers on an internet forum count for nothing in this scenario.

I'm in NI and originally from ROI and I am eternally grateful to the EU for standing up for us and the GFA.

Their 'backstop plan' is that it will be the Irish sea
Ah the secret plan is to force Irish reunification. Yeah that doesn't sound like it will put any lives at risk at all. Will it be the EU army they send in to stop the renewed terrorism and enforce the border? [shakes head in despair]

Walkingdeadfangirl
It is not a 'secret plan' at all. Maybe someone like Mindy would confirm that most on the Island of Ireland would be happy with this setup as it honours the GFA and the necessary disruption to trade will be minimised. Checks can be made at either end or even during the sea crossing whichever is felt most appropriate.
Pathetic squawking by internet randoms will not influence the actions of the grown ups.

The mutterings of the DUP who are the main opponents to having the border in the sea are hypocritical in that there are already checks on certain classes of goods, it would simply extend the range of what is checked.

I think at first most people would've been happy with a border in the sea. You'll never please everyone obviously, even over less sensitive issues. I can understand unionists not liking the idea of a border in the sea, but I like to think most could've been persuaded it was for the best (and of course our agricultural laws are already more closely aligned with ROI, not to mention differences in lots of other areas because of devolution).

I hope the border in the sea would still be agreeable as it's the easiest option as far as I can see, but I fear the DUP have given it such bad press that I worry it won't be acceptable to many unionists, and of course loyalists.

MindyStClaire
It was the EU 'preferred emergency position' which is part of their 12 point plan for contingencies when/if the UK crashes out. I am presuming this is still the case.
Other parts of the plan are the continuation of most flights but under full EU treaties (certificates, insurance etc). Ferries can sail, trucks can move but this is only for 9 to 12 months and the EU can withdraw any of these measures unilaterally and at any time.
If this plan is needed then the UK gov will REALLY have to pull it's finger out as 9 months is not long.

1tisILeClerc Unless their is a border referendum on unification whose army are you going to send into N.Ireland to protect people from terrorists opposed to the EU/USA enforced breakup of the UK? And whose navy are you going to send in to collect any taxes/duties moving across the Irish Sea?

Without the consent of the UK government and the people of NI what you are suggesting is literally nonsense. No wonder we voted to leave.

@Walkingdeadfangirl
By voting to leave you allowed this foreseen problem to come to life. Don't blame others for this shit

Walkingdeadfangirl
For goodness sake grow up.
There will be no border on the Island which maintains the GFA.
While there is the possibility of a small number of 'protestors' objecting to the imposition of border checks around the sea crossing, for a start the quantity of goods being checked is smaller than it otherwise would have been their initial 'beef' is the land border. If some decide to take this further I am not sure who would be taking 'control'. The cause of this potential 'upset' is ENTIRELY that of the leavers, so it is YOU who should be explaining how YOU are going to prevent any problems.

{No wonder we voted to leave.}
And LEAVE is the root of the problem, YOU solve it.

There will be no border on the Island which maintains the GFA.

I agree there will be no Irish border everyone has agreed so, even in the event of a no deal Brexit. So the EU should stop being so stuck up and drop the backstop so we can start negotiating a FTA like grown ups!

While there is the possibility of a small number of 'protesters' objecting to the imposition of border checks around the sea crossing

You still haven't said who is going to force the UK to do and police this?

The problem is solved we leave the EU in October. Sorted.

I agree there will be no Irish border everyone has agreed so, even in the event of a no deal Brexit

I think this is the biggest problem with Leavers right now - they cannot get in into their heads that just because we don’t want a border and the EU doesn’t want a border, that doesn’t mean there will be no border.

It’s fucking stupidity.

Get it into your heads - we cannot just carry on as before once we are a third country unless we offer the same terms to every other country in the WTO.

@walkingdeadfangirl. I don’t get it, if there are no checks at the border and DUP will not allow checks at the Irish Sea, all people and goods coming into the country cannot be monitored?

I mean that is ok I guess - because that is what we have now. Maybe such goods will just have to go through Ireland. Also means continued freedom of movement. But why lose the benefits of EU at the same time? Eg why lose our bargaining power as a large bloc or have to pay to devise more regulatory standards or Galileo access?

Of course there will be a border if there is a no deal Brexit. Just because no one wants one doesn't mean a thing. It is an international border, an EU external border and borders without EU style agreements need to be patrolled for a wide variety of reasons. If the uk refuses to police an external border it will be a matter of refusing to respect international law. Obviously those who are willing to rip up the GFA don't care about international law in tbe first place...

Politically nobody wants to discuss it and we in Ireland / EU want to avoid it desparately but to pretend it is possible for no border to exist in the event of a no deal Brexit is more unicorns and generally put forward by the kind of Brexiter who still hasn't copped on that Ireland is no longer a British colony and/or think irexit is a thing.

No deal Brexit means a hard border in the north and is why you will need to agree to a backdrop before any subsequent trade agreement. And please, don't insult our intelligence with talk of technological solutions that cannot be explained. Ireland doesn't want NI and if and invisible border / tech solutions were feasible, we would go for it. There is no conspiracy to take over NI by the Irish govt.

@usuallydormant is correct. Of course there will be a bloody border @Walkingdeadfangirl. If we go WTO both we and EU will require it. You have to have control over your economic area and if that can be solved by technology then that's fine. But it can't. You can have a grace period while you sort your shit out.
Or are we now planning to play headless chicken with WTO? Is that the new Brexit battle front. Will these numpties only be happy when we are back living in caves. Maybe the caves are too regimented. Maybe the trees would be better. Or even the ocean (with apologies to Douglas Adams)

There are 3 'bodies' that say there SHOULD legally be a border to check goods and usually all movements across 'external' borders.

The WTO calls for it as a demarcation between trading zones.
The UK has stated it will be 'Taking control of our borders' and the EU who also have a law that says goods and people crossing into the EU must be checked.

Nobody WANTS a border on the Island of Ireland but international laws need to be upheld.

Walkingdeadfangirl is obviously applying no brainpower to this situation, as is usual for him/her.

A border in the Irish Sea is the least worst and most workable option. If May had not called that disastrous election and got into bed with the DUP I believe this would have been agreed long ago. The majority of people in NI would not see this as a step towards reunification but as a means to minimise disruption to their daily lives continue the current economic and social ties between NI and ROI.

{means to minimise disruption to their daily lives}
There are already security checks so it would mostly be adding customs officers so only an incremental delay, if at all.

Obvious solution to no border is, well, to have no border. But we all know what that means.

Interestingly it appears that 2/3 of people in Ireland (republic) are now in favour of reunification.

The WA and the leaving process are not the same. There is a procedure for leaving, which should hopefully include a WA that is signed to set out the terms both sides agree to for the withdrawal (such as a transition period).

Trade deals and the 'extra' agreements we will need will not, as far as the EU are concerned, be discussed until the WA is signed.

We can leave without a WA, the main one being if we run out of time. We just leave with the agreement in place and end up with closed borders, no agreements, no trade, no rights for Brits in other EU countries etc.

The relevant wording is clause 3 of Article 50:

1. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

So to stop the 'possibility' that lives will be put at risk in 2 years the EU is choosing to definitely put lives at risk immediately because they hold all the cards.

The EU are putting lives at risk? No, they're not. That'll be the UK government expecting Ireland to fall in line with the monumental fuck up they've created (which by the way, directly contravenes the GFA, which they and the majority of voters who could be arsed to consider beyond their own nose knew all along).

There can't be a border between NI and Ireland. It will cost lives.

So anyone who voted for Brexit, needs to think on. Because either through ignorance (the information was always there) or arrogance (they knew but didn't give a shit about the people of NI) they've caused this.

Who started this stupid shit? Who wouldn't leave via a perfectly viable WA? Brexiteers.

They are the reason we aren't out yet. And their stupid petulance may either cause the disaster of No Deal or result in us not leaving at all.

For those 'poo pooing' the NI situation, a viable bomb was found under a policeman's car this afternoon.
Fortunately it was spotted and defused safely,,,,, this time.

I'm so over all this shit, like the vast majority of people whether Leave, Remain or didn't bother to vote or can't vote.

Whilst I think No Dealing is a very bad thing to do - I'd take that if it was a clear decision just as easily as I would accept a Second Referendum or anything really as long is it is a point that means something and we can all move on and get on.

The Blame Game gets everyone nowhere - clever little opinions, anecdotes, links ad infinitum are all meaningless.

I didn't think Leave would win the Ref, I never thought Trump would be President - I scoffed at the mere thought of Boris as PM.

And it looks like .... well I know nothing, and I really don't think any of us do.

as long is it is a point that means something and we can all move on and get on.

No deal isn't an end point but a starting point.

Deals still have to be done. This will take many years.

There is no longer any scenario which is an "end to Brexit". Even revoke doesn't end things: it supercharges the culture wars.