No Deal Brexit - Bring it on

[Bearbehind]

It’s economic suicide but there’s clearly no other way to demonstrate to Leavers what a shit show this all is.

Leavers resolutely refuse to listen to anything negative after 3 years, so fuck it.

I feel for those who woukd be affected by it but I didn’t cause it.

The irony is there’s not a Tory MP with the guts he cone PM and then to do it - so this mess will go on indefinitely.

Agree, don't see a way out of this now, until the numbers change, which will take a generation, if then.

Cameron has a great deal to answer for.

Haven't read the whole thread, only the OP. It's very easy to be 'liberal' 'educated' etc etc if you're already in a position of economic security and privilege.

There is a MASSIVE housing shortage in the uk. People in well paid, educated, professional jobs are living in POVERTY because of the housing crisis. I live in an AVERAGE but desirable city and the AVERAGE cost to rent a 1 bed flat here is now £750 a month. Because there is so much competition for housing. There are so many people chasing each private rent. It's devestating. Put the council tax, utilities and other bills on top off that and well paid working people are ALREADY LIVING IN POVERTY. Economic suicide has already happened!!!!

I would be 100% a remainder, but the uk government has not provided the housing and infrastructure to accommodate people moving from other eu countries to the uk. This is nothing personal against Europeans, this is a problem with the uk government not actually supporting the free movement of people.

Economic suicide has already happened for many of us who are stuck in this dispairing hopeless housing situation. We have no hope. There are not enough houses for everyone. The future is hopeless. This is not racist. This is a housing issue

{I would be 100% a remainder, but the uk government has not provided the housing and infrastructure to accommodate people moving from other eu countries to the uk. This is nothing personal against Europeans, this is a problem with the uk government not actually supporting the free movement of people. }

Well you will be glad to know that fewer Europeans are coming, but quite a number more non Europeans are instead.
Leaving the EU will not fix any of the UK's problems but will take a lot more money out of the economy and kill off existing jobs.

Free movement is killing us.

It's also keeping wages down. I'm lucky to have an education and a professional qualification. My father works in construction and my mother works in catering. They work so hard for pennies. How can they compete, when people from very poor European countries are happy to come here , be paid the
Minimum wage (which is basically unliveable), spend a few years living in to be honest, inhumane conditions, to get a reasonable amount of money and then go home. Don't blame them, muchos respect to them. It's deteriorating the quality of life for many people in the uk. Many many people in the uk do not realise how privileged they are. And yes brexit will hurt them. But please stop going on about how all brexiters are uneducated racists. And stop being so proudly left wing. Look at the poverty and suffering on your doorstep...and stop with the virtue signaling

And stop being so proudly left wing. Look at the poverty and suffering on your doorstep...and stop with the virtue signaling

I don't give a shit about left or right but if your problem is housing, poverty and poor infrastructure, moving to a US style system will come as a bad shock to you.
You think a hard right conservative government will help you? More housing would be built under them? Less immigration? No, they will be quite happy to let people in from much poorer non EU countries and give them even less rights than now, scrap regulations and drag standards ever lower.
So naive to think brexit is a gift to "the people". All those pulling the strings are billionaires. Genuine friends of the little people indeed.

If you think Brexit/Remain is a right/left thing you really haven't been paying attention.

Wages will not go up and houses will not suddenly be cheaper when all the European people who moved here leave. They're not the ones setting the wages or rental costs!

A Conservative government, or even worse, a Farage-led Government, is not going to help poor people escape poverty. All those places like small Welsh towns and the grim bits of Cornwall which received EU funding will be left to rot.

{It's also keeping wages down.}

It is a structural problem all the way through.
You as a consumer want to pay less.
Particularly food producers want to make a good profit so need to hire workers for the best they can.
Seasonal work is quite difficult to regulate and some will be relatively happy to work 'cash in hand'. They will be a minority but concentrated where the jobs are obviously. They will also have limited access to other facilities but can use the NHS.
It is government failure to monitor, plan and execute the plans to ensure society is fairer.
There is nothing stopping anyone in the UK moving to another country if they think the UK is giving them a 'bad deal'. Europe is diverse enough to have employment opportunities to cater for everyone. You might have to get off your backside to do this though, which strangely enough is what many already do, especially if there is a weak 'welfare state'.

But it would mean learning another language and I am constantly stunned by the ideological resistance to the idea. The DoE should massively push for a reform of modern language teaching (and marking system). Young people should have more choice as well, both of European and non European languages.

And I would specifically target white working class kids with less opportunities. They're the ones that would benefit from greater mobility.
Languages are perceived as a middle/upper class skill and that's BOLLOCKS.

We have no hope. There are not enough houses for everyone.

There are enough houses for a majority of homes in some communities to be owned by second home owners (mainly British).

Friends and family in Norfolk and Devon report communities being hollowed out by holiday home ownership. My father lives on the Norfolk coast in a property where only 1 in 4 flats are permanently occupied. The neighbouring property went for millions, and locals can no longer afford homes, yet many houses in the village are empty for 50 weeks a year.

This has literally nothing to do with immigrants.

Most Europeans speak several languages. They are expected to learn at least 2 in school. Many will have basic skills in a couple more, particularly in border areas.
This of course flies in the face of Theresa's assertion that the UK will become a new global power, once it has freed itself from the EU.
It you want to trade with 'the world' you have to speak their language.
While English is currently the language of world business, companies that want to succeed will make the effort to be at least relatively fluent in several languages. Of course the Brexit planning by Theresa and co started this multilanguage teaching several years ago (not).

There are enough houses for a majority of homes in some communities to be owned by second home owners (mainly British).

What would your solution be to that, Mistigri?

Very true Leclerc. I work with Dutch and Belgians and they usually speak 3: Dutch/Flemish, French and English (sometimes also German). All Scandinavian professionals I know speak English in addition to their native tongue and in fact they tend to say English doesn't count because it's so common. To have an edge you'd need at least one of two more. And so on...

Norwegians used to have German as their second language but that Adolf chap pissed them off so they officially changed to English. This was obviously a good while back.
Not being a historian but French was an official language in at least part of England for a while. Happy to be corrected as it helps allay the myth that the UK is not 'European'.

What would your solution be to that, Mistigri?

I would look at how to make the cost of second home ownership reflect the true cost to communities.

On the tax front, there are a number of ideas you could look at (I'm not a tax expert so I can't comment on how effective these would be). For example, allow councils to charge higher council tax rates on unoccupied properties; impose higher capital gains tax on second homes; introduce a land tax.

You could also allow councils to apply zoning restrictions in areas where second home ownership is especially high, restricting for example the use of properties for holiday lets.

I'm sure there are many other things you could do, if second-home-owning baby boomers were not your core voting population...

Not being a historian but French was an official language in at least part of England for a while. Happy to be corrected as it helps allay the myth that the UK is not 'European'.

French was the official language of the Royal courts and the upper classes for many years. The Royal family still speak fluent French, I think- the Queen definitely does. Not surprised that French would have been spoken. Probably in the port towns by traders.

The problem with that: it's cemented the perception of languages (esp French) being somewhat elitist, which as I said upthread is bollocks.

Brexit uncertainty continues to take toll on manufacturers - Make UK/BDO survey

Seamus Nevin, Chief Economist at Make UK, said:

“Whilst the data at first glance makes for reassuring reading there is a clear weakening trend which, if it continues, would push some elements of industry over the edge before too long.

“Earlier this year there was clear evidence that industry was on steroids as companies stockpiled. Underneath, however, there is now growing evidence of European companies abandoning UK supply chains, whilst Asian customers balk at the unknown of what may exist as the UK leaves trade agreements which operate under EU rules.

“With this picture it would be the height of economic lunacy to take the UK out of the EU with no deal in place. This race to the bottom in the interests of party ideology has to stop otherwise there will be a heavy price to pay.”

www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/news/2019/brexit-uncertainty-continues-to-take-toll-on-manufacturers-make-uk-bdo-survey?fbclid=IwAR0ksrhT3MLOK4pqrfx7OHLCAwFiZmu8WQWCRDawqQfvgCqpHb85nFmeTBE

We should all be sending this to the Tory MPs and other members of the Tory Party who seem likely to chose for our next PM an advocate of a "no-deal brexit" - ie economic lunacy

Yaralie
The trouble with the Make UK link is that we don't know how much spin/bias is in the article;

"Make UK (formerly EEF) works with the EU Parliament, Commission and Council to create an EU that is business-focused and effective." "We want to see a reformed EU–one that is more dynamic and focused on growing its manufacturing base."

"As part of our engagement we hold meetings with EU Commissioners, with MEPs, the Commission and the UK government."

There is nothing stopping anyone in the UK moving to another country if they think the UK is giving them a 'bad deal'. Europe is diverse enough to have employment opportunities to cater for everyone

Except that after Brexit, UK citizens won't qualify to work in EEA states. Employers will have to show that they can't find a suitable employee from within the EEA before they can recruit someone from the UK. How likely is that, except for the most specialist roles? Someone won't be able to go to Germany to work in a bar and learn German anymore.

As for there not being enough hosues, there are more than you think. But developers don't like refurbing existing ones because they don't make enough money. They prefer to build poor quality new ones in green field sites.