Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

Do people expect 'remain' parties to sweep the board at the EU elections, to reflect the change in opinion?

Helmet if the Leavers I know are anything to go by, they have always been Leavers in that they’ve always had issues with the EU (Not sure how when they are farmers and have benefitted substantially from the EU but....)

Some ‘older’ (as in 50+yo) mc Remainers I know are still Remainers... Some of them are actually seriously considering moving to the EU because they can’t stand being in the UK, with all its politics. They are conservatives too....

NoYo actually no I don’t.

I believe the country is still roughly divided in half and the result will reflect that.

Trying to save you from the abyss.

Do people expect 'remain' parties to sweep the board at the EU elections, to reflect the change in opinion?

If it were a straight choice between remain and Brexit then yes subject to turnout I think remain candidates would win in most areas.

But it's a lot more complicated than that. Notably, some lifelong Labour and Tory remainers will still vote for their parties, on the grounds that this is an election for MEPs not a referendum.

Also, the remain vote will be split between LD/Greens/SNAP/Plaid Cymru/Change UK as well as those loyal to Tory/Labour, whereas the Brexit Party is a single issue party with the sole purpose of attracting leave voters for the European elections. I think it will be important to look at their vote share as well as number of MEPs.

Sorry, should say SNP.

@louisecollins - AV voting - list preferences. Votes are counted. Straight out majority wins. If not least popular is ‘knocked out’ and people who voted for that get their next preference. Count again and repeat.

Keep going until one option is a majority. It’s a bit like X factor in that the least popular is knocked out each ‘round’ (though as you list all your preferences at the start,you don’t have to phone in again next week). Don’t think that is too hard for most of the population.

The problem with Euro and UK elections is that none of it really resolves the question of whether the UK should Revoke or leave.
It NEEDS a direct and precise question that cannot be open to 'interpretation'. In the same way, would you like a cup of tea, yes/no?
There can be supplementary questions such as with milk and/or sugar.

A major stumbling block is that the UK has not comprehended that the WA WILL be signed if the UK plans to leave in any form. It is not an option and in a practical sense May just needs to sign it. It is NOT a 'deal' but the ground rules for departure and is non negotiable. The timing and degree of departure are still to be negotiated in the Political Declaration.
The cabinet, HoC and everyone else don't get to chose to not sign the WA.
What happens AFTER the WA is signed is more interesting as there is everything to play for as all options stay open.

I don't think society is 'deeply fractured' . I think it suits a certain narrative to portray it as such.

Finding out what it was that people wanted to see happen as a result of leaving is important, what actual tangible changes did they envisage occurring as a result of leaving ? Are any of those changes possible if we don't leave ?

Of course these were the sort of questions that should have been asked following the referendum, prior to triggering Art 50. The answers of course would have meant the Government admitting some unfortunate truths

Well I don't know frumpety. My MIL has fallen out with me and hardly speaks to me anymore because I told her what Brexit meant for me (aka I feel I don’t belong here anymore and I’m JUST an immigrant).

I have friends who are struggling to speak to their neighbours because of their political views. And have fallen out with others.

Most of views I hear are VERY cut and dry, being very judgemental of the people holding the opposite view to them. MN isn’t immune to that either!

So generally, people just avoid the subject altogether just in case it leads to a fall of some sort.

And that’s even before talking about the issue with Scotland, NI etc....

EggandButter sorry to hear that , obviously I can only go by my experiences. My parents voted to Leave, I disagree with them on this subject. I don't argue with them about it though, they know I do not agree. I think my Mother would be more than happy if it didn't happen now, I think she has reached peak Brexit and wishes it would now just all go away. My Father does try to bring the subject up if I am around and the debate can get quite lively but never nasty.We have both worked in jobs where dealing with people in highly emotionally charged situations is the norm, so if it starts getting too much one or the other uses their training to subdue the situation

De-escalate , rather than subdue, been one of those morning

I have found that how the conversation surrounding Brexit unfolds, can depend on the language used, so if someone starts from a pro-Brexit stance, I don't tell them they are wrong, (maybe on here sometimes ) I might say 'I'm not sure that's true though is it ?' or 'Yes I see what you are saying, but I am worried about the effect on x,y or z' . The beauty of discussing this particular political situation is that you can usually agree on one thing and that is the politicians have done a pretty bad job so far

Sorry for multiple posts, just trying to get it all in before I head off to work

The WA isn't a deal. It is the bare bones of a framework to exit.

It is just the start of continuous negotiations with the EU, where we will always be the weaker negotiating partner.

It will go on and on and on and on. One day we will wake up and realise we are sidelined and shut out of any economic / world decisions.

One day we will wake up and realise we are sidelined and shut out of any economic / world decisions.

Or we become like North Korea and see ourselves as the centre of the world.

Something to look forward to.

{Or we become like North Korea and see ourselves as the centre of the world.}

For the true nerd, sand has many textures as the UK government will see if they bothered to put the light on (with their head stuck in it).

{Or we become like North Korea and see ourselves as the centre of the world}

The UK tourist board can team up with the n Koreans and make savings. See, I thought of an advantage to leaving!!

Or we become like North Korea and see ourselves as the centre of the world

I think that's what got us into this mess in the first place! Misplaced Britishness and waffling about the empire and the power of Britain and wanting it back how it used to be.

One of the things I love - and hope to continue to love - about the UK/Britain is the understatement of the state. Not for us photos of the Queen in every office, flags on every corner ...

@frumpety

Thanks frumpety for your post, I shall try to answer your questions from my own POV as a Leave voter. Sorry this will be in bits and I’m going to put your questions in a different order than you asked them, hope that’s OK.

For info “my starting point”
I have, over several years, reached the conclusion that Leaving the EU is about the only thing I’ve ever politically really wanted to happen. I am fascinated by politics, a total news junkie I consume masses of information about it, from a huge range of viewpoints.

I have reached the conclusion that for as long as we an EU member state, changing our government domestically makes little difference to our politics. The same kind of people are in charge, delivering the same kind of outcomes.

My starting preference is therefore: We have voted to Leave and Leave we must.

What if anything would diminish the feeling of being let down?

My honest, personal, answer is that, given the above, nothing is an acceptable substitute for Leaving, and nothing would alleviate my feeling of being let down.

I consider the result of June 2016 to be the product of 4 decades of failure from our representatives. I consider those failures to have become much more egregious in the last 2 decades, as EU integration has proceeded without explicit popular consent in the UK.
If the referendum question is put, the result is announced and the outcome is not delivered, how honestly would you expect me to feel after that happens?

Remember, 4 decades of failure, a referendum with a clear result and our representatives are still not acting upon it.

What might work? Well if I had any confidence that we could build the kind of society I want to see while Remaining in the EU that would help. Regrettably I can’t see anything like that happening as Remainers/the establishment will just consider that they have won and the argument is over.

More on what changes I'd want to see and how do we deal with those who feel let down by the political establishment if we do not leave in another post.

How do we deal with those who feel let down by the political establishment if we do not leave?

If we don’t leave, and I’m assuming this is post a revoke or a second ref delivering remain. I think the ways to deal with the feelings of being let down would include the following.

First, the establishment must be removed.

Another “post revoke” general election is called. Every MP in the Commons from 2015 onwards loses their seat at the dissolution of Parliament and every last one of them is debarred permanently from seeking any public office in the UK.

Every MP in the Commons from 2015 onwards loses their seat at the dissolution of Parliament and every last one of them is debarred permanently from seeking any public office in the UK.

How can you possibly suggest that? My local MP has a very good record of speaking for her constituents, I don't see why she and others like her should pay the price for government inadequacy.