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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2019 10:10

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
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BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2019 16:35

If the politicians I remember from the late 1960s - 1990s were also that ignorant,
then at least they did a much better job of not revealing their ignorance in public.

However, I suspect parties then very rarely allowed such ignoramuses to become MPs, let along ministers

lonelyplanetmum · 26/04/2019 16:42

why they think we seem to have so many poor quality politicians in uk at the moment?

I think it has been happening progressively since the 1980s. One reason for this is deindustrialisation and the shift to services jobs and progressive growth of city power and salaries.

Not that money is all but I think the shrewd, visionary thinkers are drawn to the corporate world and the benefits that accompany that.

Politics is a bit Z list by comparison. So you get the thicker ones who want the power without the nous to make it in the commercial world.

Some left wing ones are better as they are more motivated by altruism. The right wing potential candidates lose the savviest as they are attracted elsewhere.

Politics used to be more respected and prestigious -now corporate roles are more so. In the 60s and 70s being a CEO was still a bit ' trade' , but now a successful corporate bod is more respected, powerful and richer than most politicians.

DGRossetti · 26/04/2019 16:48

Whole article

www.npr.org/2019/04/26/715926169/heres-why-brexit-wasnt-followed-by-frexit-swexit-or-nexit

npr.org
Here's Why Brexit Wasn't Followed By Frexit, Swexit Or Nexit
Frank Langfitt Twitter Facebook Instagram
5-6 minutes

Pro-European Union demonstrators march in Berlin on March 31. Adam Berry/Getty Images hide caption

toggle caption

Adam Berry/Getty Images

Pro-European Union demonstrators march in Berlin on March 31.

Adam Berry/Getty Images

When the United Kingdom voted for Brexit nearly three years ago, some thought it might mark the beginning of the end of the European Union. Some analysts warned the U.K. would be the first in a series of dominoes to fall and spoke of a possible "Frexit," "Nexit" and "Swexit."

But instead of becoming a harbinger of the EU's demise, the United Kingdom descended into political chaos and became a cautionary tale for other EU countries.

Isabell Hoffmann, who tracks opinion in the EU for Bertelsmann Stiftung, a German independent foundation, says Brexit hasn't hurt the EU's standing — it's helped it.

"We do see a Brexit effect in the numbers when it comes to support for the European Union," says Hoffmann. "Actually, they go up in a significant manner, and they stay up ever since." That support is up by 10 percentage points since the 2016 referendum, she says. "There are now roughly 70 percent of people who'd say 'we would vote for our country to stay in the European Union.' "

Other polls show similarly high levels of approval for the Brussels-based political union and trading bloc of 28 nations. Observers say more people are rallying to support the European Union these days because it's under siege.

Many Europeans are also wary because the Brexit process — far from being smooth and successful as Brexiteers had promised — has been a disaster. Prime Minister Theresa May and the British Parliament have been trapped in a policy maze for months, with no consensus on how to leave the EU. Britain's House of Commons, known for its boisterous but often erudite and coherent debate, has been marked by shouting matches and vitriol.

George Papaconstantinou, who served as Greece's finance minister from 2009 to 2011, says much of Europe has watched Brexit play out with disbelief and astonishment.

"A country which prides itself as having an extremely robust parliamentary system suddenly finds itself completely adrift," says Papaconstantinou.

The political disarray in London has made leaving the EU a hard sell on the continent. "The whole process of Brexit being so complicated, so difficult — that made people realize that you don't leave the EU so easily," Papaconstantinou says. Eurosceptic parties in France, the Netherlands and Sweden have since backed off calls for similar referenda and focused instead on changing the EU from within.

In the last decade, the EU has been rocked by immigration and debt crises. In the wake of the 2008 global financial crisis, a number of countries, including Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Cyprus, weren't able to repay or refinance their government debt. The financial meltdown threatened the European banking system. In 2015, more than a million migrants and asylum seekers from Africa and the Middle East traveled to Europe, putting pressure on public resources, fueling populism and helping to tip the Brexit referendum to leave.

Papaconstantinou says support for the EU has risen not just because people fear the chaos that a divorce like Brexit would bring, but also because more Europeans seem to appreciate the EU and see "a common destiny in a way that they didn't five years ago."

But the European Union's problems are far from over. Economic growth is slowing. The population continues to age. And EU critics are gaining more political power.

Even as Brexit has provided some breathing space, populism is a bigger challenge today than it was in 2016. Populists are in charge in Italy, the third-largest economy in the eurozone, and populist parties in Sweden, Spain, Germany, Austria and Estonia have made breakthroughs.

"I think you can make a convincing case for why the challenges to the EU have gained momentum," said Matthew Goodwin, co-author of National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy.

Goodwin says the EU has the upper hand now and the Brexit mess has strengthened it. But the long-term success of the European Union is far from certain.

AuldAlliance · 26/04/2019 16:49

tobee
One answer is that you have to be a v specific kind of person nowadays to go into politics. The media attention, working hours and lifestyle in general are tough, and most intelligent people can earn good money doing interesting and more agreeable jobs. Cleverness is also not a valued quality in society in general (cf Gove and experts), and our current crop of politicians reflect that. They are, many of them really very poor, and they get away with it, which doesn't necessarily encourage more competent people to join their ranks.

As a friend who once worked as PPS to several ministers often told me, 'We get the politicians we deserve.'
A country that swallows Farage's crap in such bucketfuls gets politicians of his ilk. Ditto the continued acceptance of Boris's lies, Davis's laziness, Bradley's ignorance, May's lies and swithering, etc.

Globalisation has also, perhaps, led to fewer people entering politics for idealistic reasons, as there is an impression that power has been diluted at national level and there's not much you can do. Hopefully seeing how the Tories have screwed people over for so long in a short space of time might encourage people to think that could be reversed and more positive policies implemented equally efficiently...

FPTP is discouraging, too - if you participate in local politics but see how the system dysfunctions so that voter representation is totally skewed, perhaps it doesn't encourage you to enter that arena.

Another is that in England, in particular, politics seems to have become an old boys' club, where many people come from a fairly similar background and co-opt other, similar people.
There are exceptions (D.Lammy, S. Khan, J. Philips, etc.), but the Tory party is a very poor reflection of modern UK society, and the current Cabinet particularly so. That reduces emulation amongst people who are not white, upper-middle class males.
Holyrood is a bit different to Wminster MPs in this regard, which may be due to the Scottish education system and to the lack of Etonians north of the border the lovely Alyn Smith is also an example of determined eloquence that you don't see elsewhere much.

lonelyplanetmum · 26/04/2019 16:50

at least they did a much better job of not revealing their ignorance in public.

Maybe Bigchoc is right.
I don't think people like Ted Heath and David Steel etc were very much better? Perhaps social media, Twitter communicates and exposes inadequacies more quickly ?

DGRossetti · 26/04/2019 17:00

A border story ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/26/owner_of_smugglers_inn_bb_ordered_to_put_up_sign_warning_guests_not_to_cross_into_canada/

A chap who runs a B&B an actual stone's throw from the US-Canada border has been ordered to put up a sign warning guests not to cross as a bail condition.

(contd)

jasjas1973 · 26/04/2019 17:04

Edward Heath was a clever chap, a musician, oxford educated, opposed Franco and served in WW2.

He went against Con policy of appeasement and of course took us into the EEC :)

He had some leadership skills, unlike the present lot in Govt who are career politicians, self serving, willing to fuck over UK Plc for party gain.

Just look how we are endangering national security, upsetting our allies, just so we can secure the favours of the Chinese... disgraceful & is an illustration of how brexit, far from taking back control, will see the UK whoring itself to the highest bidder (which won't be very high)

havingtochangeusernameagain · 26/04/2019 17:11

I think that I will be voting for Catherine Bearder of the Libdems again.

Although I have received an email from the Greens asking me to vote for them. I'm not sure where they got my details from!

havingtochangeusernameagain · 26/04/2019 17:13

If I lived in the south west I'd probably vote for Molly Scott Cato.

DGRossetti · 26/04/2019 17:17

Edward Heath was a clever chap, a musician, oxford educated, opposed Franco and served in WW2.

One of my abiding memories of EH - and Tony Benn - is their appearing together on a programme just before the first Gulf War, to argue for negotiation, and anything - anything but military action.

There was a woman in the audience - early 30s (?) who really laid into them both as cowards, traitors (!) and typical of the softy namby pamby politicians we had to endure now days (this was 1990/91). My memory was it was a "Question Time" sort of programme. After she'd shut up (took a while) the host had to point out that they had both served in the military in WW2 - with honour - and one accusation that would not be brooked was that of cowardice. Especially given this ladies "bravery" seemed to consist of sending other peoples into war, since she rather obviously wasn't serving herself.

DadDadDad · 26/04/2019 17:42

I live in Heidi Allen's constituency and you've just reminded me that I grew up in Heath's constituency, so that's two pro-European party leaders. (Neither of which I ever actually voted for Grin ).

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2019 17:46

Omg the lead candidates for the NW are

No 1 for the Brexit Party who is a former communist revolutionary who supported Irish republicanism but opposes the GFA. She says she disagrees with Farage on just about everything else such as workers rights etc etc. So how that will work with a Brexit Party Manifesto for a GE I don't know.
No 2 for the Brexit Party. A Danish national who is a dentist. No sure how No Deal works for him.

Jaxley-Lennon

No 1 for UKIP. A director of a family rental lentings agency based in Sheffield and director of a dormant shell company.

No 1 for the LDs. A former MEP who was forced by mutual agreement to resign rather than be sacked as the LD group leader in the EU Parliament following very dubious comments about Israel, including comparing current policy with the holocaust.

No 1 for the Greens a leading anti fracking campaigner

The three current Labour MEPs including one who has actively campaigned for a PV. The two women are actively involved with women's and LGBT rights in the EU Parliament (so I don't know if that's good or bad)

No 1 for the Tories who was first elected as a LD MEP then defected to the tories and was reelected as a tory candidate. His personal interests are human rights, leading the fight against Islamophobia and has a particular interest in the role of developing trade deals with countries outside the EU. In particular leading moves for a FTA with India (on the proviso of human rights), a preferential deal with Pakistan and better deals with Azerbaijan and Georgia.
No 2 Tory is Council leader for Eden and stood as candidate for Preston in 2017.

And the Change UK candidate who I can find very little about is from Liverpool and is a charity sector entrepreneur. Whatever the fuck that means.

So I'm now very stuck because that definitely rules out the LDs.

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RedToothBrush · 26/04/2019 17:47

The best candidate by a country mile is the lead Conservative.

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missclimpson · 26/04/2019 17:50

I think part of the problem is that becoming a politician has become a career choice, rather than something people do after another career (Keir Starmer is an honourable exception in the current crop). One senses that many of them even take a cynical decision about which party offers the best possibility of personal advancement.
Many of the wartime generation were, I think, there because they genuinely wanted to make the world a better place.
Denis Healey, who was a brilliant and highly cultivated man, criticised Margaret Thatcher for not having a hinterland. I think Theresa May has even less of one.
When things are as difficult as they are today, I think they simply do not have the life experience on which to draw.

DGRossetti · 26/04/2019 17:53

I think part of the problem is that becoming a politician has become a career choice, rather than something people do after another career

I'd happily see all terms in public office limited to two. That would at least encourage a turnover of candidates, so there's more chance of them reflecting their constituents.

Sadly, it usually takes revolutions to achieve any change to the status quo, simply because it is the status quo. Unless you have an unusually visionary constitution to start with.

DGRossetti · 26/04/2019 17:58

No 1 for the Greens a leading anti fracking campaigner

I have on occasion voted Green when all else failed Grin. However, generally I'm not that Green. They really have swallowed an awful lot of bollocks instead of science.

Personally, I'd be anti fracking in the UK because for all the money it's going to make, fuck all of fuck all will end up helping the area it's operated in. So you have a public resource (the land) basically funding private (and probably offshore) pockets.

NoWordForFluffy · 26/04/2019 17:58

Omg the lead candidates for the NW...

So I'm now very stuck because that definitely rules out the LDs.

The best candidate by a country mile is the lead Conservative.

I posted a link to the lead Conservative over the bank holiday, Red. He seems very non-Tory, doesn't he?

I hadn't seen all the candidates, and there's been no literature yet, but you've just ruled out LDs for me. Which is a pain, frankly. Especially as the website which tells you how to tactically vote (I forget its name) said that the NW remain vote is LD or Green. I'm not a big fan of how 'woke' the Greens are, so ruled them out (though the LDs are only marginally better).

We've been dealt a shit hand really. It's a crazy world when the Tory MEP is the soundest one of all the candidates!

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2019 18:04

Yep fluffy. That's where I am with it all. I don't think I'll know who I'll vote for until the day.

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Iambuffy · 26/04/2019 18:05

I'm not sure I can bring myself to vote lib dem of green

TalkinPaece · 26/04/2019 18:10

Talking to a pro Brexit friend today and we agreed that this LIMBO is te worst of all worlds
and is making people angry
not good

NoWordForFluffy · 26/04/2019 18:11

I've not got a bloody clue now. At all.

I can't believe that I'm hoping Labour come out as full remain so I can seriously consider them.

It's all gone very wrong round these parts!

Confused
Flowerplower · 26/04/2019 18:11

How is the lead Tory candidate better than the Labour candidate who has actively campaigned for a people's vote though?

NoWordForFluffy · 26/04/2019 18:13

The lead Tory is VERY pro-remain.

There was an article about him in the local paper recently. I saw it linked on the rather frothy local news site.

I'll try to find it.

Flowerplower · 26/04/2019 18:18

Thanks NoWordforFluffy. Wajid Khan the Labour MEP is also very pro-remain and has been pushing hard for a PV. www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2018/08/at-conference-labour-has-to-back-a-peoples-vote/%3famp

NoWordForFluffy · 26/04/2019 18:19

Neither party is pro-remain though, so I can't vote for either of them!

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