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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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TokyoSushi · 06/04/2019 23:50

PMK, we've moved house and unpacked so brexit watch can recommence, plus I now have a utility room so can begin any 'forward purchasing' as necessary

Whatthefoxgoingon · 06/04/2019 23:51

So it’s no deal on Friday if France, Spain and Belgium veto? When do we find out for sure? And what can now stop this from happening?

I’m clutching at my sanity here....

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/04/2019 23:59

So it’s no deal on Friday if France, Spain and Belgium veto? When do we find out for sure? And what can now stop this from happening?

They have their meeting on Wednesday - though they may agree to give us two more weeks to let the markets prepare for a crash out. Or they may agree to something longer - if TM gives them any sign that that might be worthwhile. But we won't actually know about Friday until Wednesday - probably the evening.

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 00:02

I'm swinging between 'it'll be fine, we'll get a long extension' and planning to book the holiday I've been putting off booking, and 'oh shit, oh shit, what else do we need to get before all hell breaks loose?'

Icantreachthepretzels · 07/04/2019 00:04

And what can now stop this from happening?

TM needs to get participation in the European elections signed off before Weds (this is with the privy council (I think) not through parliament) - the trouble is, she is reckless and arrogant and may think she can wait until after Wednesday - that will not be looked on kindly by the EU27.

She needs to present them with an idea for some kind of meaningful step forward. Talks with labour are all very well and good - but they need to agree to something. The obvious thing would be a people's vote (or confirmatory referendum or whatever face saving expression they want to give it) but she's dead against that.

Assuming she manages none of this (which is a fair assumption) ... she needs to revoke. (spoiler alert - she won't)

All the rest of us can do is sit and wait helplessly. No wonder so many people's mental health is being adversely affected.

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 00:08

And every other time she's gone over to speak with the E27 leaders, she's made things worse. So there's that.

AdaHopper · 07/04/2019 00:12

Belgium won't veto. Our economy is quite relient on exports to the UK.
France and Germany's trade is a lot more diversified.

Whatthefoxgoingon · 07/04/2019 00:20

Jesus, I can’t believe we won’t know until Wednesday at the earliest!

Thanks icant

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 01:44

More reports - Sounds promising, but will it come to anything - and in time ?

A "Boris-lock" is exactly what we need !

MoSSPoliticscs@MoSSPolitics

SURRENDER:
Customs Union deal with Labour “close” - as Tories offer Brexiteer-proof legal lock in and chance for MPs to decide on second referendum... but it won’t be called a Customs Union...

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Shmoople · 07/04/2019 02:40

Nicola Sturgeon's response to that ^^ headline

@NicolaSturgeon
If the detail of this is true (and I accept it is only an ‘if’) Labour will never be forgiven. A deal that would see them vote for a Tory Brexit, with a ‘nod and a wink’ agreement to kill off a people’s vote.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 02:42

All parties who vote against a deal at this stage will share blame for No Deal

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 02:43

and if MP are given a vote on the PV, I don't know what she's blathering about

Icantreachthepretzels · 07/04/2019 03:30

I think the assumption is they agree to put a P.V to parliament and then both labour and tories whip against it - so the politicians get to decide that we won't be allowed a second vote ... but it becomes collective responsibility because all of parliament agreed to it.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/04/2019 06:12

A belated happy birthday to pretty and PMK

TheMShip · 07/04/2019 06:24

After all the talk of HoC majorities in the indicative votes process, I found this tweet interesting:

Actionforexpatvotes
@Actionforexpat
·
Apr 5
Enough about the "17.4 million". The MAJORITY was only 635,000. It only needed 317,000 voters to choose Leave instead of Remain. How many votes did £675,000 illegal overspend and targeted ads buy or influence?

Sostenueto · 07/04/2019 06:28

So TM 'had' to reach out to labour or risk letting it slip through her fingers.....she added there was a " stark choice" of either leaving EU with a deal or not leaving at all.

Seems talks have ended without agreement so blame game full on now but a glimmer of hope for us remainers in the fact that she didn't say her deal or no deal.

Flowerplower · 07/04/2019 06:37

CrunchyCarrot I admire you so much for being strong enough to admit you've changed your mind. So many people seem unable to do that! Although when I was at the march for a People's Vote I saw a big group of people carrying identical signs saying they'd voted leave but would like a PV so they could vote remain. My little group gave them a cheer and thumbs up signs when they walked past us. So there are definitely more out there like you, some if whom I also know personally. Hopefully it's a growing movement! Have you had a chance to speak with other leave voters? Is that something you'd feel comfortable and be willing to do?

BigChocFrenzy that article has given me a glimmer of hope...but how irresponsible of Sturgeon to discourage compromise. Labour are in no position to insist - if they won't compromise we crash out. And a lock, customs union plus parliament voting on a PV would be far better than no deal. I suppose she can see that but is just playing politics? Usually I agree with her but not this time.

mathanxiety · 07/04/2019 06:43

pmk,

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 07:21

I'm astonished that people are taken in by the May/Corbyn "compromise".

Notably, I don't see any way of "locking in" a compromise that could not be unpicked by May's successor, because once the WA is passed, Labour has no leverage.

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 07:22

There is no lock that cannot be unpicked by a future government, unless it is in the withdrawal agreement itself (which the EU has not agreed to reopen).

More unicorns...

Littlebelina · 07/04/2019 07:27

What is the process for revoke if we to wednesday and told no extension? (I know revoke won't happen but wondering if there is time anyway)

lonelyplanetmum · 07/04/2019 07:32

Enough about the "17.4 million". The MAJORITY was only 635,000. It only needed 317,000 voters to choose Leave instead of Remain. How many votes did £675,000 illegal overspend and targeted ads buy or influence?

Three years of thinking about this, pretty much every hour of every day. Yet I've never thought of the maths in this way before!

It makes TM and the government's banging on about the " biggest mandate" "80% of voters voted for parties endorsing it " etc rather disingenuous.

Why did the government handle the pr as they did. Why did they? Was that all Nick Timothy's initial plan? An honest politician's response would have been the majority was 317,000 in an advisory referendum, we will try to find a way of listening to all citizens.

Flowerplower · 07/04/2019 07:36

Mistigri my understanding of the "lock" is that it would involve giving powers to the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales, and NI and enshrining these in law. These governments would need to approve any changes to the deal, making changes by a brexiteer government practically impossible.

frumpety · 07/04/2019 07:42

The whole 'slipping through our fingers' malarkey makes me wonder if she is starting to manage expectations for a revoke ? Not at the end of next week , but if we end up with a long extension, in the future ?

Probably just wishful thinking Smile