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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

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Songsofexperience · 07/04/2019 07:45

Just disgusted by the latest appalling behaviour from brexiteers:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894471/Liam-Fox-joked-Emmanuel-Macron-sleeping-grandmother-Brexit-extension-block.html

Bet he doesn't say Melania sleeps with her grand dad. Same age gap.

frumpety · 07/04/2019 07:46

It feels less combative than previous language, more of a verbal shrug.

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 07:49

Have you had a chance to speak with other leave voters? Is that something you'd feel comfortable and be willing to do?

No, sadly I'm disabled and housebound these days. Actually my health may have something to do with my change of heart, in a roundabout way. About 2 months after the Referendum I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, and that's deeply affected me as I was unable to get the medication I need prescribed due to failings in medical education basically (although I do get a far less effective med prescribed)! It's a very long story and many people are affected, and there are campaigns ongoing. It's made me look at the medical profession in a very different light along with drug companies and the NHS in general. There's so much that's rotten. And that has made me start thinking about a lot of other areas and of course Brexit is one of those. I no longer believe the platitudes trotted out.

howabout · 07/04/2019 07:52

"17.4 million". The MAJORITY was only 635,000. It only needed 317,000 voters to choose Leave instead of Remain. How many votes did £675,000 illegal overspend and targeted ads buy or influence?*

Actual FAKE news. Suggest anyone who doesn't already have these sorts of figures etched indelibly on their brain fact checks before reposting propaganda.

The actual figures were 17.4 m Leave and 16.1 m Remain. The margin of victory was 1.3m not the 635k quoted. If people start talking about devolving power over the Deal then they also need to acknowledge that the margin of victory for Leave in England was higher still at 2m - that is the same as the total vote for Remain in Scotland and N Ireland combined.

The Leave illegal spending claims also just make the tweet look foolish in the light of £9m spent by the Govt on a Remain leaflet prior to the campaign funding rules kicking in.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

Flowerplower · 07/04/2019 07:55

Flowers for CrunchyCarrot. That sounds incredibly tough. Hard enough to be diagnosed with a serious illness, let alone to find the safety net and support you thought would be there have been ripped away. Wishing you luck with the campaigns.

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 07:59

Aww thank you Flower ! Smile - does this forum have a hug emoticon?

curragh · 07/04/2019 08:12

@HazardGhost
I lurk time to time on these threads - I'm NI living in Ireland and am transfixed by Brexit

Your question re meds' is my area of expertise. All meds from US (including refrigerated) are received into one EU member state where they are 'released' for EU use. The meds are then distributed within the union.

The UK have said they will recognise an EU released product therefore no additional checks should be required upon receipt in the UK.

The unknown question (as with all goods) is possible delays with shipments, customs checks, tariffs etc

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 08:17

howabout
Most people on this forum don't really give a toss about some numbers of which the 'leave' campaign used illegal funding.
The important thing is that the Leavers now come up with a plan to keep the UK as it was pre referendum, let along deliver the seaside donkeys unicorns they were promising.

howabout · 07/04/2019 08:19

Tweet of the day on TM's latest attempt at compromise by Neil Harding:

"That's it then. She means her deal, but that is terrible & not brexit, no Labour MP or true brexiteer can support that. That leaves Revoke. Just get on with it. Then we can all have a massive argument!"

Would add 80 Labour MPs already having signed a letter demanding a PV to endorse any Deal (also TW and ET public statements) effectively kills off talks.

howabout · 07/04/2019 08:26

1tis I completely accept what you are saying, but allowing others to post unsubstantiated rubbish unchallenged does not support your case.

Also Leavers are very very unlikely to come up with a plan to "keep the UK as it was pre referendum" because they voted for CHANGE. If Remainers are able to deliver keeping everything they want whilst also honouring the vote to Leave and delivering Taking Back Control so that the "Burning Injustices" can be tackled then Leavers are All ears. It is a Remainer Parliament and Govt which is in charge after all and which promised to do just that.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/04/2019 08:28

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 08:36

howabout
Yet more pathetic whining about Remainer parliament and other crap.
It is the leavers JOB to formulate a plan so stop being so insulting to the people who voted to remain. You haven't got over the 'we won get over it' mentality and moved onto the next stage of 'how the hell do we do it'.
3 years and NO BLOODY PLAN.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 08:38

The MoS article is very interesting, if true.

Maybe May will now actually compromise a bit in order to sort the problem out. And I'm not sure why Labour MPs calling for a PV kills off the deal if they're considering asking the MPs to vote on a PV. I'd imagine being able to vote on this (and there's no reason Labour would whip against a PV as it's their party line since the conference) will help a deal get through.

The lock is very clever if true. May gets to go when the WA goes through, but also ties her successor's hands, so another blow to the nose of any ERG-er who may get the job. And, actually, if the law is in place for the lock, we may actually not even get an ERG PM, as the only reason they'd even want the job is to get a hard Brexit. Can't do that? Don't want the job.

I'm actually quite interested to see how much of the Mail's story will come to pass tomorrow.

Either May has actually listened to the EU27 (surely not!), or somebody (Hammond?) has made her see sense.

I don't know, maybe I'm an idiot for having hope, but I'd prefer to be cautiously optimistic, than sink into a pit of despair. The former is way better for my mental health, quite frankly.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 08:44

Can't work - I've said before. There currently is no devolved govt in NI, Wales voted to leave so that would leave Scotland out on its own again.

I'm not sure the Welsh government would allow an ERG PM free reign to deliver a hard Brexit though. I'm not sure it's right to think that just because a country voted leave, their elected representatives would allow no deal / a hard Brexit. If this deal is agreed, it IS Brexit, so the people of Wales would be getting to leave, so why vote to then allow an ERG PM have the power to rip up the softer Brexit deal?

I dunno, like I said, I just want to hope something can be done to make this work.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/04/2019 08:45

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

borntobequiet · 07/04/2019 08:46

Dear God this shitshow is the consequence of none of these idiots bothering to think things through before starting them. Correction: not bothering to think about them at all. We really are a cautionary tale.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 08:50

I'm astonished that people are taken in by the May/Corbyn "compromise

Notably, I don't see any way of "locking in" a compromise that could not be unpicked by May's successor, because once the WA is passed, Labour has no leverage

Agree.

Brexit means nothing.

The executive powers seized through the Withdrawal Act mean everything.

However, the executive has already breached /broken the law on key elements of it, not least the monkey business round the Meaningful Votes that weren't. Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 08:51

At this stage, we are where we are

No good saying "I wouldn't start from here"

We are 5 days away from no Deal and if all that can save us is voting for a WA with lock by the other 3 nations,
then I would aks MPs to do this

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 08:53

The lock can be made part of an international treaty, so cannot be reversed by any future HoC.
Adding a clause to the PD would do it

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 08:56

Merkel working hard behind the scenes and willing to allow a short extension, not a long one,
precisely to help May apply pressure to Parliament to pass the deal

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/06/merkel-may-lifeline-brexit-departure-date-withdrawal-agreement

woman19 · 07/04/2019 08:57

Can anyone think of anything May has done to prove she actually intended/ wanted to persuade anyone to get the WA passed?

lonelyplanetmum · 07/04/2019 08:59

I'm sorry if I angered Howabout for repeating "unsubstantiated rubbish". It's really just the point about when you look at a majority only half the numbers are needed to change to produce a different result.

My real point was why Did TM and the government bang on about the " biggest mandate" and "80% of voters voted for parties endorsing it " etc .Doesn't this have a disingenuous element?

The correct Maths is that if 634,750 voted the other way this would have produced a different result. And this isn't the huge mandate in a country of 66 million people that it's made out to be.

It is helpful when people with different viewpoints engage and I was merely trying to understand why did the government handle the PR and spin all the huge mandate as they did.

I do think those initial responses that became set in Stone came from the Nick Timothy team.

A more honest politician's response would have been 634,750 voters produced the 'win' (in an advisory referendum) and we will try to find a way of listening to all citizens.

This reaching out has never happened not even with one week to go. Even the meetings with TM and JC do not appear to offer even a sop towards those who think differently.

Anyway it's all water under the bridge - because we've got six bloody days to go and so even though views and numbers have changed the maths don't really matter now. What matters is trying to salvage some kind of trading and civil international relationship going forwards...

(More on the figures here for historical reference -
LSE~figures)

Peregrina · 07/04/2019 08:59

Another way of slicing the 'We won by 17.4 million' argument, is to say that the difference was only 650,000 or about a 1/10 of the number who have now signed the petitition. This is something like the population of Middlesborough or Leicester.

Are we really going to attempt to destroy our industry and break up families for the size of one city in a population of 65 million? Let alone risk Civil War breaking out again in N Ireland?

67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 09:00

crunchy I can well imagine your feelings of regret - I am sure there are many of you- and I welcome you to the thread.

I am still so angry with those who "blithely" voted leave, like you did, with no real understanding of what you were voting for and the damage they have inflicted, the future - or lack of - my children may now face, but that's my issue, not yours.

Many of the posters on this thread have no such issue and I'm sure you will learn a lot...I certainly have.

Another bregreter joining the thread (again, welcome!) has simply solidified a feeling I've had for a long time....

This is a divided country.

The anger I feel towards leave voters and brexiters in parliament is not dissipating. In fact, as every week of this epic clusterfuck goes by its getting stronger.

I realise my feelings make me part of the problem, but what do I do?

I have no idea how - as a country and as communities - and whether we revoke, or PV or WA - we come back from this.

It's the end of the union. It's the end of social cohesion. The Tories will - somehow - stay in power and so austerity will continue.

There is no good outcome for the UK now, no matter what is decided.

Sorry.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 09:02

We are 5 days away from no Deal and if all that can save us is voting for a WA with lock by the other 3 nations, then I would aks MPs to do this.

Me too, BCF. We need to avoid ND and we absolutely need to show the EU27 that we are at least bloody trying to resolve the impasse.

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