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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 06/04/2019 16:27

From the Cornwal daffodil article ...

The government has forgotten how much we need the unskilled migrant sector which is vital for most economies.

Er, no. Leavers "forgot". Bearing in mind that Cornwall was overall pro-Leave.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:30

Howabout I've heard estimates of the far right / far left populist vote in the EP increasing from the current combined 10% to 14%

However, "Euroscepticism" in the E27 has a very different form to that in the UK:

  • Populists want to change EU policies, not leave the EU

I'd noticed this change in the AfD even before the referendum, but the Brexit chaos has made all kinds of "exit" politically toxic.
The Uk is a laughing stock and that has killed off any serious talk of exit even from the Euro, let alone the EU

  • So the EU policies they want to pursue: First and foremost, stopping Muslim immigration & refugees Cancelling some environmental regs, especially on car emissions - this is a powerful play for the votes of those in the auto industry

Those 2 policies alone are expected to increase their # MEPs

  • Protecting the Single market is understood by most people to be vital to the economy Hence why there have been sympathetic speeches for their fellow fascists in the UK bungling Brexit, but no offers of the cake that Brexiters need for their fantasies to come true

The UK govt is also despised by all sections of the German public at least, so advocating real concessions would be a bad vote-loser in EP elections

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 16:30

{I think the fact that it rained inside the Commons on Thursday also messed with any potential schedule for Monday.}

On the basis that in cricket rain stops play I suppose it is quite apt.

BoreOfWhabylon · 06/04/2019 16:36

pmk

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:36

I'm also disgusted that the May-Corbyn talks did not continue over the weekend

The politicians are really not taking this crisis seriously
It's as if they think this Brexshit omnishambles is a natural catastrophe that just somehow happened, rather than a Made in Britain Fuckup

Maybe they expect the EU to save them from themselves

May could plan on repeating her "Make me an offer" to Merkel on autorewind, until she get sent out of the summit room again, with supper, while the adults decide what to do about the Problem Child

67chevvyimpala · 06/04/2019 16:38

These useless pieces of shit should be working 24/7 to sort out this fucking shitfest.

The criossant/dildo analogy springs to mind....

RussellSprout · 06/04/2019 16:41

I get the sense that May is just going through the motions. I think she's mentally given up.

The only one with any sense of urgency seems to be Yvette Cooper.

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 16:41

{May could plan on repeating her "Make me an offer" to Merkel}

Since the UK has still failed after 3 years to say what it wants (rather than what it doesn't want) with the EU who are friends and partners, how the hell is the UK going to negotiate with anyone else to get ANY resaonable deals.
'I would like to trade, what have you got?
'Dunno, you suggest something'!

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:42

Another factor that I've read might cause the EU to refuse an extension - if May has no reasonable plan -

is that they don't want the weeks leading up to the EP elections to be filled with populists ranting that the EU won't let countries leave.

Too easy for populists to twist an extension like that, especially if Farage, Boris & co claim the UK public is being kept against its will - as Boris has already implied in his very expensive Torygraph articles.

Tonsilss · 06/04/2019 16:46

Very unimpressed that MPs think their holiday plans have priority over sorting out this mess.

Mistigri · 06/04/2019 16:46

If the indicative votes don't, er, indicate something, then what again?

Ideally a general election, except the Tories dont want/ can't afford one, and Labour isn't quite as keen as it was - and the FTPA means that both parties have to really want one.

It's not that I want a GE (I don't get a vote and I don't want either main party to win) but I think that no resolution is possible without one. Actually it might require more than one GE to get a govt with a stable majority that can make and implement policy in a normal way.

Justanothermile · 06/04/2019 16:46

Agree - I get the feeling May is almost at the stage of saying 'fuck it, you sort it' to the rest of parliament.

howabout · 06/04/2019 16:46

This is why it is very very difficult for Labour MPs to vote for the WA.

Video pressuring them not to from PV campaign. Basic message compromise with May, reunite Tory Party and get BoJo / Gove / JRM / AL cabinet.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=180&v=1dq6vSjo4AY

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:47

leclerc Easy with the US (if the Irish American lobby don't chime in):
the US just tells weaker countries what they are going to sign; they don't negotiate

I remember a former US trade negotiator saying they has great problems getting used to the idea that they actually had to negotiate with the EU.

After a No Deal, Britain will soon be on its knees, so it's just a question of which gorilla gives us a good stomping:
USA / China / India .... or maybe sign up to the WA and negotiate with our neighbours, with whom we do 50% of our trade

Mistigri · 06/04/2019 16:53

Video pressuring them not to from PV campaign. Basic message compromise with May, reunite Tory Party and get BoJo / Gove / JRM / AL cabinet.

Cry me a river. That's politics. If Corbyn and his minders had been the slightest bit interested in what party members thought, then he/they/we wouldn't be in this position.

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 16:54

{or maybe sign up to the WA and negotiate with our neighbours, with whom we do 50% of our trade}
sounds a bit like a PFI exercise. Outsourcing government responsibility and 'other' interested parties make a financial killing.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:54

Yep, howabout Add the 170 Tory & DUP No Dealers, plus their 10 or so Remainers, plus all the Labour, Liberal, SNP & Tigger Remainers .....

v difficult to find any Brexit deal they can agree on.

Hence why the default No Deal is the most likely outcome, as they will probably not be able to choose anything else

How long will the EU continue to extend in the hope something changes ?

Enabling this extended UK dithering is harming business planning and enabling an extended power vacuum, which helps the extremists

howabout · 06/04/2019 16:54

I disagree completely with comments so far re MPs not sitting on Fridays and weekends. My local MP was out doing street surgeries and connecting with voters yesterday and is likely doing more of the same today.

Means said MP will be going back to Westminster having cleared their head of Bubble Westminster thinking and will be able to approach matters more objectively. I very much doubt anyone even mentioned Brexit as it is far from the top of the list of issues in my constituency.

I actually think there is far too much talk and posturing in House of Commons atm. It is all just stirring the pot and completely counterproductive in terms of decision making.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:57

howabout By EOB 9 April - Tuesday - May has to have done the Order in Council for EP elections and to have formulated a plan to present to the EU SUmmit next day

So we have bugger all and that leaves only Monday+Tuesday to do it all

howabout · 06/04/2019 16:59

"Enabling this extended UK dithering is harming business planning and enabling an extended power vacuum, which helps the extremists"

Agreed

A bit of Larry Elliott to counter all the doom and gloom.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/customs-union-soft-brexit-trade-goods?CMP=share_btn_tw

In summary, in spite of being a fully paid up Guardian economics journalist he is not that fussed about the Customs Union.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 16:59

leclerc The alternative of negotiating with the US after a No Deal reminds me of that bloke who negotiated online to find someone to cook his penis and eat it

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 17:01

Fabian Zuleeg @ fabianzuleeg
BBC News - Brexit: EU's Donald Tusk 'suggests 12-month flexible delay'
t.co/kaFvTbG3Bl At it again. He does not speak for EU leaders on this. A long extension without a UK decision is not in the EU27's interest. Leaders need to take control

Charles Grant @ CER_Grant
Fabian speaks for senior figures in Brussels and Paris. What he says should alarm those who hope, like Tusk, Merkel & most serious Brit pols, that a long extension can prevent a crash out. @CER_EU

Declan Gaffney @ djmgaffneyw4
Hope the penny drops before it's too late that Tusk, Merkel and- yes- Varadkar are the UK's best hope of avoiding a self-inflicted catastrophe.

OP posts:
Apileofballyhoo · 06/04/2019 17:03

That Guardian article about how the rest of the world views Brexit - why oh why can the powers that be not see it? Just cancel the fucking thing and take the civil unrest or whatever on the chin.

Apileofballyhoo · 06/04/2019 17:08

Varadkar will do anything to avoid having to protect the SM. He needs that border open.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 17:11

Elliot is a longterm Brexiter

The UK depends on services, which are hardly dealt with at all in any trade deal or by WTO / GATT
However imperfectly and undeveloped, the EU is the most open services market in the world for members
and iirc from Ivan Rogers latest speech, it is also by far the biggest market atm for Uk services

The obsession with ending FOM - and hence Single market membership - also ended our free movement of services

Elliot writes
"Britain runs surpluses in services, both to the EU and the rest of the world, because it is good at banking, insurance, law, architecture and consultancy"
Very mc and elitist !

The UK signed up to the then Common Market because the Customs Union gave the bloc considerble trading advantages and the UK was squeezed out.
Other non-EU countries coulod compensate better with greater efficiency, lower wages etc but that's not a good prospect for the UK

The SIngle Market is what enables frictionless trade, but it requires FOM

The proposed CU, like the backstop, would copy all the trade-related SM regs to give - NOT frictionless trade - but as frictionless as possible
Might have a 1-2 hour average delay, like Norway, which would be manageable for business, if reliable

It is far inferior to Remain, but vastly better than No Deal.
BIG plus: no shortages of medicines

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