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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 10:57

Trade unions & collective bargaining gave workers basic rights back in the 20th century

  • employers didn't just give them out of the goodness of their heart, or unless there was a shortge of appropriate workers

The power dynamic between average Jill / John worker & employer is very unequal:
withdrawal of labour is the major weapon that workers have, to improve pay & conditions, or protect jobs.

re changing jobs if your employer won't raise your pay:

That's fine if you can afford interview costs and are able to take vacation days to attend them

and if you are of the age and skillset to find another job, rather than being 1 application of 50 each time.

and if your new job starts the day after your old jobs ends - because many people have no savings to cope with missing even 1 week's pay

The union in my industry in Germany is very clever about using strikes for 1 day (often Wednesday for maximu effect) or even 1 hour
They are very rare, but I always participate out of solidarity, even though I'm senior staff

I'd never cross a picket line of people wanting better pay & conditions, or trying to save their jobs from "cost-cutting"
No tech project is important enough for me to shit on others further down the pay scale

We're all workers, unless we live off capital / pensions

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 10:58

We're all workers, unless we live off capital / pensions

This. Everyone is working class by definition if you have to work for a living. But perhaps that discussion belongs on a different thread :)

wheresmymojo · 08/04/2019 11:00

I came on to share the Peston article as it's quite cheering...but woman has beaten me to it!

I know TM has been useless in many ways but I do think we would be facing no deal (or already living through it) if any of the other likely Tory candidates had been at the helm.

TheMShip · 08/04/2019 11:01

@howabout well done to your daughter! that's impressive conceptual maths for a 7yo.

Saw this just now (really was on twitter to check new research papers, honest ...)

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
·
6m
PM heading to Berlin tmrw to meet Merkel

I can imagine how that will go.

Littlespaces · 08/04/2019 11:02

I know TM has been useless in many ways but I do think we would be facing no deal (or already living through it) if any of the other likely Tory candidates had been at the helm.

I wonder what will happen when they are at the helm?

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:03

For all the Maths Geeks out there this is a fascinating piece of Regression analysis applied to the ageing Tory problem.

I had to shower after reading that ... TL;DR appears to be that the 60 year olds of today are different to the 60 year olds of 10 years ago. Is this a no shit Sherlock competition.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:05

PM heading to Berlin tmrw to meet Merkel

Swapping recipes ?

PestyMachtubernahme · 08/04/2019 11:08

I know TM has been useless in many ways but I do think we would be facing no deal (or already living through it) if any of the other likely Tory candidates had been at the helm

I wonder what will happen when they are at the helm?

This, this and this again. We are in the mess we are because nobody trusts the Torys, even the Torys. The potential bonfire of rights is scary.

wheresmymojo · 08/04/2019 11:10

I'm very pro-Union/workers councils.

I have done a fair few restructuring and offshoring programmes for big insurers across Europe.

Restructuring (AKA reasonably large scale redundancies) is easy in the UK. Yes, there's a process to make sure you stick by some basic rules but it's really very straightforward and a business has very few obstacles. Good for business, shit for employees.

In France and Germany there is much more of a balance of power between employees and business because there are 'worker's councils' which proposals must be submitted to. There are much more stringent rules which balance power too...in the UK I can make any number of chances impacting the same people (my last organisation some people had been through redundancy consultation three times in 12 months!). You can't do that in France...once one area of the business has been impacted you can't make any further significant changes for a year to avoid this kind of ongoing uncertainty.

The redundancy packages are also excellent...so the employer needs to really think through what they are doing as the cost is fairly significant. In the UK I've had many conversations where the leadership have chosen to cut staff levels quite deep because 'we can always just hire some people in a few months if we've cut too deep'. It also means the individual isn't left in a shit situation as they have funds behind them to have the time to look for another role.

Even as someone who implements these kind of changes I believe the French & German models are a much better way of working.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:14

I suspect May really doesn't give a shit about her legacy ... like most martyrs. However if she had been persuaded that her revoking and acting as a lightening rod for the mild tutting[1] that would ensue would be the best way to ensure the Tories live to fight another day .... it starts to look possible.

[1]c'mon ... we already know how "invested" the Leavers are. It won't be Paris '68, or even London 2011.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 11:19

DG I disagree

I think we'd have had No Deal back on 29 March, if May wasn't seriously worried about her legacy:

being in the history books as the infamous PM who chose / allowed No Deal and the permanent tumble of the UK out of the big league, civil unrest etc

She wants Chamberlain or Cameron to be voted #1 in the worst ever UK PM list, not her.

  • she's got a struggle ahead to avoid that !
1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 11:20

A musical interlude, perhaps a tad early but anyway...

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 08/04/2019 11:23

News of the Brexit Blackout has made my day, frankly. I'm immensely cheered by the thought of a bunch of angry gammons sitting in the dark, bored out of their minds, unable to watch telly, phone into LBC, post their toxic shite on Facebook or Twitter or the DM Online or even order a takeaway for a whole 24 hours GrinGrinGrin

Perhaps we could persuade them to carry it on for a bit longer? Fucking idiots.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:23

Pursuing what I assume would be a Revoke and Resign move from May, it's fascinating to speculate what the subsequent leadership contest would look like .... after all you could have a headbanger Brexiteer on steroids. But what would they do ? An immediate retriggering of A50 isn't possible. And a subsequent election drive with a pledge to "re-Brexit" might not be the strategy that wins.

Interesting times.

I suspect Mays visit tomorrow is a desperate attempt to have a peek behind the wizards curtain for Wednesday ????

TheElementsSong · 08/04/2019 11:23

twitter.com/c4dispatches/status/1114954083511808006?s=21

This voter is Brexit Britain encapsulated in one person Confused

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:26

Well if May does care about her legacy, she's got two choices, really ...

  1. revoke and ride out a temporary period of opprobrium but be re-evaluated a la Nixon, Heath, Major

  2. Carry on with no-deal, and remain topping that poll ahead of Chamberlain and (more gallingly) Cameron.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 11:26

I'm not expecting civil insurrection

However, the polarisation created by that irresponsible fool Cameron and the bitter anger on both sides has only worsened
and we can't reliably predict the consequences.

The Tory Party is so batshit now - can a political party go insane ? - that it is likely to fracture if May doesn't deliver a No Deal soon

That could mean that the divided right is simply rendered powerless by FPTP and the demographic changes cause the hard right to die out as a significnt force

or one of the splinters could rise and take all the votes - and FPTP could give them an absolute majority and absolute power

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 11:28

If our hope is that May will Revoke ....
Bloody hell, we are truly desperate !

Littlespaces · 08/04/2019 11:30

@DavidLammy
Put this on the side of a bus.

Britain already £66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit

metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/?ito=article.desktop.share.top.twitter

woman19 · 08/04/2019 11:31

we can't reliably predict the consequences
So far, 'consequences' have included the less than a hundred men going for a long wet walk and some people in Doncaster switching off their mobiles. I think we've faced worse before. Wink

howabout · 08/04/2019 11:31

MShip that is the broad approach to teaching maths for all Scottish 7 year olds if their schools are correctly following Curriculum for Excellence - it is thankfully massively different from the Gove approach.

TheMShip · 08/04/2019 11:40

@howabout We're in Scotland. My oldest is in P2 and I've been impressed with some of the stuff he's brought home for maths homework. It's good to hear that it continues. Smile

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 11:40

"Random" YouGov question today Grin

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:01

May needs to really work hard to get the required unanimous support for an extension

However, she doesn't seem to have a plan to do actually do anything .... other than beg the EU for yet more time to dither Hmm

Actions would help her far more than begging trips

1st step if she's serious is to bring her Order in Council for EP elections

  • I don't know if she can do that while she is away, or is she has to be actually present

Next step is to find a compromise PD with Labour and a way to make it Boris-proof / legally binding with a lock,
so PD as an international treaty the EU will sign

  • I hope others are working on this, while she - and some senior Cabinet Ministers - are abroad.

Peter Fosterr@pmdfoster*

So ‪*@theresamay*‬ is to Berlin and Paris before ‪#EUCO‬ for ‪#Brexit‬ talks.

A clear sign that assumptions that EU leaders would agree to Tusk ‪#flextension‬ were premature

After chat this morning am hearing clear resistance from EU members, and not just from French