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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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TheMShip · 08/04/2019 12:02

Fascinating thread from @chrischirp (Christina Pagel): [https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1115202019575332864?s=20]

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
·
3h
Thread: We've done a UCL-YouGov, 5000+ UK voters – asked people to rank outcomes for Brexit.
@HuffPostUK
article here (link: bit.ly/2UGHgtK) bit.ly/2UGHgtK

Main pts: OVERALL, No Deal is LEAST preferred outcome (despite what ERG say), but it is the MOST preferred outcome for LEAVE voters. 1/6
Image

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
·
3h
People who didn’t vote leave are REALLY WORRIED about the impact of No Deal on the economy. But Leave voters are not only not that worried about No Deal – they are MORE worried about leaving with the Withdrawal Agreement. 2/6
Image

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
·
3h
But, among Leave Voters, support for No Deal is driven by those most likely to weather any economic downturn. Financially struggling Leave voters are MUCH MORE worried… it's not the "left behind" who really want No Deal... 3/6
Image

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
·
3h
Why might Leave voters want No Deal? In our question on priorities, Leave voters cared most about UK control over laws & independent trade – these were both more important than the economy. But May failed to sell the WA on these priorities. And then there's the backstop... 4/6

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
·
3h
Govt & business warnings about No Deal are contradicted by leading Brexiteers; May’s “No deal is better than a bad deal” mantra can't have helped & govt has failed to be honest about the trade-offs inherent in ANY Brexit. All have helped make No Deal a legitimate outcome 5/6

Christina Pagel
@chrischirp
Ruling out No De al IS what the country wants as a whole, but the deep divisions between Leave and Remain voters will likely continue to create major problems for political parties and make any Brexit outcome divisive 6/6 PS done with awesome
@ChristabelCoops
&
@UCL_EI

I've attached the graphs she posted, hope you can see them.

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
TheMShip · 08/04/2019 12:03

Try that again for the graphs.

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Mistigri · 08/04/2019 12:08

Striking that leavers are LESS worried about the impact of no deal on the economy than May's deal Shock.

Whatever else it is, this is a resounding indictment of the customs union policies being pursued by both parties.

Remainers don't want a customs union (whether it's red or blue) and leavers think that it is more damaging economically than no deal.

ElenadeClermont · 08/04/2019 12:08

Those graphs are fascinating. Although I expected a lot more well-to-do middle class voters to be worried about the economy.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:12

That poll contradicts other polls, showing Leavers - and Tories - more in favour of the WA than remainers

The poll where No Deal beats Remain is IFF there is no Extension

Asking preferences in a specific scenario is different to asking people their preferred option atm - which for some is still to keep negotiating for cake.
Possibly the idea of "giving in", after the EU refuses an extension, plays a role.

Britain Elects@britainelects

"On what should happen if Britain has not agreed a deal by 12th April - with extension not an option:"

No deal Brexit: 44%

Remain in the EU: 42%

via @YouGov, 31 Mar - 01 Apr

howabout · 08/04/2019 12:13

Interesting graphs. The WA (and all variants thereof) does indeed seem to be a compromise which doesn't please anyone and therefore no political advantage for anyone in pushing it through.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:14

Misti There is no single outcome that is the #1 choice of a majority

An SM deal - since this means FOM - has to date been more unpopular in polls than a CU

So it is likely that the #2 or even #3 choice of Remainers & Leavers is all that could obtain majority acceptance - even if grudging.

howabout · 08/04/2019 12:15

per BBC: "You can't go into any of those discussions with big red lines" says Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt on #Brexit talks with Labour, "we are doing absolutely everything we can to try and get a resolution"

If only he'd said that to his boss in 2017. Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:16

That's what happens in a bitterly divided population, each wanting the most extreme position of their "side"
and hating anything the other side proposes

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 12:16

Govt & business warnings about No Deal are contradicted by leading Brexiteers;

The thing is ... who are they ? They're not ministers. They're not in any position to know (my point a while back that NDAs also prevent Brexiteer MPs knowing what's going on ...) anymore than anyone else.

During Gulf War 1, when Saddam Hussein called for a Jihad, I was chatting to a friend, who was Muslim, and they just shrugged their shoulders and said "Who the hell is he to call for anything ? He's not an Iman - he's no one in Islam ..."

I'm imagining Leavers trying to cash the Brexit cheque JRM wrote ...

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:17

Now we need newer polls on what people think of an SM & FOM Brexit
and of course on Revoke

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:20

The WA contains the EU's terms for an Exit deal + their prerequisites - for a 3rd country - to start negotiating the future relationship

If the UK can't accept the EU's terms, then we need to be looking at either Revoke, or becoming Singapore on Thames

67chevvyimpala · 08/04/2019 12:26

I can't read it DG!

What was the YouGov question?

Songsofexperience · 08/04/2019 12:29

If the UK can't accept the EU's terms, then we need to be looking at either Revoke, or becoming Singapore on Thames

What worries me most is that Singapore on Thames would almost necessarily come with an authoritarian regime.
It's not just about economics.

Songsofexperience · 08/04/2019 12:29

An argument leavers should understand well as they've used it for 3 years.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 12:30

YouGov question:

Sometimes you do have to accept your second or third choice in order to avoid an outcome you consider even worse.
To what extent would you consider this good advice in situations relevant to your life ?

A great deal
Somewhat
Not very much
Not at all
Don't know

MockerstheFeManist · 08/04/2019 12:32

Singapore on Thames would require an endless supply of migrant labour with no rights, and a cushy tax regime for foreign execs who keep their money offshore.

horseshit · 08/04/2019 12:41

So will May have time for her privy council order (is that what it’s called?) if she’s going to Berlin and Paris tomorrow, or is she honestly going to show up in Brussels and pinky promise that she’ll sort out the EP elections before Friday?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 12:43

DG The UK doesn't have the power to force its #1 or #2 choices, which were - and may still be - versions of cake

Trade with the EU will be on EU terms - the WA
Trade with the US will be on US terms
Trade with China will be on China's terms

If there is sufficient support - or May panics - we could Revoke .... so that is 100% EU terms by definition 😂

OhYouBadBadKitten · 08/04/2019 12:55

I feel so comforted by these no deal preps.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47652280

Confused
1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 12:58

{ we could Revoke .... so that is 100% EU terms by definition 😂}
And the likes of JRM/BoJo and co find themselves in court for something or other to do with illegal activity. That would do me fine.
Revoke is the 'best' option but has the significant problems that there are several in the UK who want to cause mayhem in the EU and that there is no 'strong stable government' in the UK that seems to actually want to be in the EU.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 08/04/2019 13:00

Grin at the Brexit Blackout.

Silly sods.

EweSurname · 08/04/2019 13:06

Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
NEW: Mark Francois writes to Brady to request informal indicative vote of no confidence in PM on Weds 3pm b4 EUCO “I believe May has been a failure as Leader of our Party, which she now threatens to destroy. Hers is a classic example of hubris – and after hubris, comes nemesis.”

EweSurname · 08/04/2019 13:08

Forgot the letter

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 13:12

I emailed my MP this morning ... here's the reply an hour later.

Thank you very much for your email.

I am absolutely clear that any agreed Brexit deal must be put back to the people. Last week, I was proud to be a signatory to a letter from 80 Labour MPs to Jeremy Corbyn MP on this matter. I have attached a copy of the letter for your information.

Please be assured that I will not support any Brexit deal unless there are guarantees that it will be put back to the public.

Yours sincerely