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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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TheElementsSong · 08/04/2019 09:46

No cars, no shopping, no TV, no phones:’ Nationwide Brexit Blackout protest planned

It's not even logical FGS. And will be another pathetic damp squib. Just sad, sad, sad.

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 09:46

I hope for that 'blackout' day they organise for streetlights to be switched off, no lights at home, no cooking, no heating, no fridge or freezer etc, not even battery powered appliances as anything less would be BETRAYAL.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 09:47

I missed this. You're a lawyer who doesn't qualify herself as privileged? Okaaayyy

You know jack about my life and circumstances. Stop your assumptions.

Our sector is currently being destroyed by the government. It's saturated with employees and employers are often preferring to use non-qualified staff as they're cheaper.

Our wages are kept relatively low (compared to other sectors). Very few of us come close to being higher rate tax payers.

You should maybe check your facts before going off on one.

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 09:52

{ Farage's march numbered about a hundred.}
With the benefit of the fog of alcohol it might have been nearer 200, HOWEVER in a TV interview he promised there would be 20 Million arriving in London on the 29th. Did they manage to slip past the cameras somehow?

frumpety · 08/04/2019 09:52

Woman19 that article sounds like an April fools ?

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 09:53

The "national strike"is basically people sitting at home grumbling and not spending money . Having lived through the actual blackouts of the early 70s, switching your tv off and doing a cat'sbum face, isn't a blackout. LMFAO, as the young people say.

Exactly. That Doncaster Free Press article is the only piece of news today that’s made me laugh. It’s not a strike. It’s not no phones, no shopping, no TV unless you actively choose not to use your phone, go shopping or watch TV. So, basically, the same as any other day...

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 09:56

Talking of 'women's work', I was watching trains on't tube last night and there was a Chinese woman loading coal waggons and shoving them around.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 09:56

Woman19 that article sounds like an April fools ?

It sounds like it yes, but it’s so very hard to tell these days isn’t it? Confused

PestyMachtubernahme · 08/04/2019 10:04

MEPs are going to be fun
My region has

  1. Independent, resigned from UKIP because it was too right wing, won't be standing again
  2. Conservative, rabid leaver.
  3. Brexit Party, resigned from UKIP because it was too right wing, leaver.
  4. Independent, suspended from Conservatives because she is not right wing enough, remainer.
  5. Labour, a remainer.
  6. Green, remainer.

So half have changed party or gone independent since the last EU elections. The country is not looking stable from here.

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 10:04

{that article sounds like an April fools ?}

It is certainly as well thought out as a toddlers petulance.
Small child refusing to do anything so the parent can just walk off and leave them (having checked they are relatively safe).

lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 10:07

For example, I was always asked by people up the management chain to try implement those bullshit zero hours contracts, no was my answer and I never allowed one to be drawn up

Just on Westminsterenders over the last few days we have talked about several aspects of workers' rights and identified the following:

  1. The Tory government blocking workers enforcing their rights by imposing £1,000+ tribunal fees for individuals to pay. In the short term these were banned by the courts as prohibiting access to justice but the govt said they would revisit this.
  1. The government again - increasing the qualifying period for unfair dismissal rights to two years rather than one which meant less employees could exercise their rights.
  1. Vetoing other EU countries looking into banning zero hours contracts.

There can be no doubt about the agenda here.Liam Fox transparently said: “It is too difficult to hire and fire [not true] and too expensive to take on new employees[ so not true]. It is intellectually unsustainable to believe that workplace rights should remain untouchable.”

To these facts.. I would add the previous Tory attempt at an employee shareholder scheme.This was eventually scrapped as it was so complex and unpopular. However the Tory gov basically tried to take away other rights too. They allowed tax breaks on employees having shares but only if they gave up some unfair dismissal ,redundancy and maternity rights. All those consulted (employers and employees alike) said the scheme wouldn't work when it was proposed. However the government ignored the experts, insisted and brought the scheme in anyway to a great fanfare, then quietly dropped it three years later as take up was so low.

You couldn't really a get clearer indication of the government agenda regarding workers' rights.

The EU shares joint responsibility over limited fields, its mainly:

-some workers' rights - the gov't do not like these

  • some environmental rights - the gov't do not like these
-food and agriculture standards - our future USA BFFs do not like these

The agenda is clear yet some Leave supporters try and claim there is a workers' revolution happening via Brexit. There really isn't , it's the opposite.

Littlespaces · 08/04/2019 10:11

@Robert_Harris

“The elimination of fruitless Parliamentarianism...” How Baedeker’s Guide to Germany justified the Nazi regime to foreign visitors in 1936. We should celebrate the Parliamentary process in the U.K., however arcane it may sometimes seem

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
Mistigri · 08/04/2019 10:14

Apart from the bit about agriculture that Robert Harris quote could almost apply to the UK right now Confused

lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 10:15

Didn't mean to ignore the posts about the 'strike' and MEPs- just took me a while to gather thought on the comments upthread.

Also on random thoughts...I was wondering about TMs many direct appeals to the people. Her angry rant trying to set us against parliament followed by her softer sofa speech.

She seems to do quite a few direct to camera- lecturn, sofa, grimsby etc moments. What is the overall purpose and message of all this? Calming us down, geeing us up, spinning her deal? What is the purpose?

lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 10:20

Apart from the bit about agriculture that Robert Harris quote could almost apply to the UK right now..

abolition of unemployment- tick if you count zero hours contracts etc
reorganisation of agriculture - tick as their markets are about to radically change or disappear
reawakening of race consciousness-tick
co-operative reorganisation of classes- tick if you count making educational opportunities and social mobility harder?

Worrying.

prettybird · 08/04/2019 10:26

Your post was number 666 on this thread lonelyplanetmum - does that make it more prophetic? Sad

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 08/04/2019 10:29

hazard Flowers sorry to hear you’re having a bad morning.

Littlespaces · 08/04/2019 10:29

Watch to the end.

(By the way it is aimed at the Leave Leadership and makes it clear half way through.)

woman19 · 08/04/2019 10:34
Wink

As I understand it, from Government sources, there is no intensifying of no-deal preparations on Monday (the famous Operation Yellowhammer), which there really ought to be if there was any serious prospect of the UK leaving without a deal in just a few days

www.itv.com/news/2019-04-08/is-cancelling-brexit-the-prime-ministers-new-default/

11 short years ago, Brown's government and his cabinet were feted for their handling of the 2008 crash.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-saved-banks

Now it looks like good news that martial law preps are on hold. Shock

woman19 · 08/04/2019 10:36

@Peston
Is cancelling Brexit the Prime Minister’s new default? Here is why it may be

bellinisurge · 08/04/2019 10:36

Nice one @Littlespaces .

I wish they would own their shit.

TheMShip · 08/04/2019 10:40

All the flapjack discussion recently... I've just had a lovely caramel one with my morning tea. Made in Coventry.

Seeing Monica Dolan win an Olivier on the weekend (she's the "I'm not trying to be funny but..." character from W1A) made me think we need a pisstake parliament comedy again. Edgier than Yes Minister, in the mockumentary style. Does one exist? Have I missed it?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 10:40

The WA is basically the Exit housekeeping + EU PRE-conditions for trade with a 3rd country,
with the backstop being a unique extra requirement for the UK

So it is not "May's deal" - it is the EU's Exit Deal

After No Deal, the UK loses transition, so:

doesn't share all the SM benefits and agencies
AND
non-EU countries won't allow us to share EU trade conditions (they probably all would during transition)

BUT
the UK will still have to sign up to the WA terms before the EU will start trade negotiations.

So No Deal means losing 20 months of EU benefits, but signing the WA and then negotiating the future deal from a position of much greater weakness

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 10:44

So because UK politicians cannot work out the internal UK side of the future relationship,
too many are ignoring the EU requirements, which are in the WA

howabout · 08/04/2019 10:55

Sorry not RTFT but I agree with Peston and have done ever since Unilateral Revocation of Art 50 was affirmed as an option.

For all the Maths Geeks out there this is a fascinating piece of Regression analysis applied to the ageing Tory problem.

www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/04/james-kanagasooriam-the-left-right-age-gap-is-even-worse-for-the-conservatives-than-you-think.html

For anyone still thinking about keeping up the confidence of a non-times table obsessed 7 year old this was DD3 and I eating Hot Cross Buns for breakfast. We had one each and then she persuaded me to half the last one - easy as it has split mark already. Then she said if DD1 and 2 arrived it would also be easy to make quarters. Then she realised the very low probability of DD2 getting out her bed and how problematic thirding would be. We then had a long debate about the relationship between 3/6 versus 2/4/8 versus 5/10 and what an awkward character 7 is. The blackboard in the kitchen now has a quartered circle with a square inside it and a circle thirded with a Y and a stripy thirded square. Masses and masses of conceptual maths and absolutely no sums involved but she did comment that 3x2 provides a bit of a bridge as does 3x4. (all before 9am so I am dossing on the internet and off to the park after lunch)