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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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woman19 · 08/04/2019 08:59

^UK poised to embrace authoritarianism, warns Hansard Society

Public attitudes emerge that ‘challenge core tenets of our democracy’, says report

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/08/uk-more-willing-embrace-authoritarianism-warn-hansard-audit-political-engagement.

3 things would have mitigated this:
keeping public housing, education and health accessible and functioning; not having introduced UC; keeping libraries and youth centres open.

And educating the public about the rights and benefits that the Trades Union movement and therefore Labour Party has brought generations.

67chevvyimpala · 08/04/2019 09:00

You tell em Billy!

LonelyTiredandLow · 08/04/2019 09:02

@woman I came on to post that same article.

The study, compiled annually by the democracy charity, found that when people were asked whether “Britain needs a strong ruler willing to break the rules”, 54% agreed and only 23% said no.

Sad
havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 09:03

I have been a member of a union for years. I've not needed to call on their services, but it was reassuring to know that I could. I have remained a member on their freelancer rate as I value what they do.

Some unions behave badly (RMT). But most do their best to make conditions better for their members and that's what you need. Employers are only too happy to pay as little as they can for as much work as they can get out of you, and get rid of you without a sidewards glance.

I have said again and again on here that the overriding reason for many Tories to want to get us out of the EU is so that they can start hollowing out employment rights.

The very first thing the Coalition government did was to increase the waiting time for an unfair dismissal claim from 1 year to 2. And that was with the Libdems in tow.

If we leave the EU on Friday, it won't take them long to start having a go at employment rights "to help the economy". Yeah right.

Random18 · 08/04/2019 09:03

good union representation is worth so much.

I am not in a union because we do not have Union representation at my level. However, if a union were available then 100% I would be in it.
And I would abide by the decisions of the collective.

So so important.

Peregrina · 08/04/2019 09:05

I am still in a union as a retired member. Both DH and I thought that we would still need someone to speak up for us, so are still happy to pay our dues.

Windowsareforcheaters · 08/04/2019 09:08

I am a union rep. I spend most of my time making sure management abide by the policies and procedures that they agreed.

Lots of work places have decent polices and procedure they just ignore them.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 09:17

Sure. Easy for middle class people with skills that are in short supply. Your privilege is showing.

You make assumptions. My skills are not in short supply. We just have to put up with it if we can't get another job.

prettybird · 08/04/2019 09:20

I don't have a problem with the WA per se: as others have said, it is not a trade deal and is merely a transition document which leaves things pretty much as they stand while the real FTA is agreed, and ensures the "problem" (Hmm) areas, like the GFA and citizens' rights are protected and financial obligations defined. The one "stand still" that the UK will lose will be FoM, which was a major concession by the EU (and a major loss for all the citizens of the EU ie including UK citizens Sad)

What I do have a problem with is the PD Confused as whatever "good intentions" it is written with (and we know how much they mean Hmm), it is not worth in law anything as a future PM (in particular Hmm), Cabinet (probably Wink), Government (should be the case Confused), Parliament (doesn't actually have a real say at all in trade deals Shock) can do what they like SadAngry

So unless concerns about the PD and the issues they raise are addressed in an International Treaty (either by re-opening the WA Hmm) or a separate formal treaty, they are worthless hot air which can be blown away by a BoJo, Gove, Raab, Cash, Francois, JRM - or even a Milne Corbyn Sad who doesn't really believe in the EU Confused

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 09:20

And I've already said that I'd probably feel differently if I worked in an industry with union support. And that I was on the fence about unions.

But you keep on with your selective quoting and incorrect assumptions.

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 09:20

We just have to put up with it if we can't get another job.

And this, folks, is why we have a Tory government and some of the worst employee protection in Europe.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 09:21

So unless concerns about the PD and the issues they raise are addressed in an International Treaty (either by re-opening the WA hmm) or a separate formal treaty, they are worthless hot air which can be blown away by a BoJo, Gove, Raab, Cash, Francois, JRM - or even a Milne Corbyn sad who doesn't really believe in the EU confused

Exactly this, prettybird.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 09:23

Strikes are planned for this Friday. Though.
No cars, no shopping, no TV, no phones:’ Nationwide Brexit Blackout protest planned
www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/people/no-cars-no-shopping-no-tv-no-phones-nationwide-brexit-blackout-protest-planned-1-9693580
I have a feeling that even proposing this is in breach of a range of laws.Hmm

mother that Jo Maugham tweet is chilling.Sad

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 09:23

And this, folks, is why we have a Tory government and some of the worst employee protection in Europe.

Are you saying that you think I agree with it? I don't, we discuss the lack of support we have a fair bit. But we have no choice, so suffer it. We can't just re-train and leave the industry, believe it or not!

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 09:23

I sue them for a living.

I missed this. You're a lawyer who doesn't qualify herself as privileged? Okaaayyy

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 09:25

It is beyond depressing...it’s the utter needlessness that gets to me, none of this needed to happen and feel like stuck in a car hurtling towards a cliff that can’t stop as didn’t bother with regular services and now the breaks have failed.

postnot Flowers to you and everyone who feels this way. In a way, I think it’s even worse than you describe. It’s more like the brakes do still work but the driver is refusing to apply them on the grounds that just over half the passengers agreed to go out for a drive.

Songsofexperience · 08/04/2019 09:26

The study, compiled annually by the democracy charity, found that when people were asked whether “Britain needs a strong ruler willing to break the rules”, 54% agreed and only 23% said no.

I do blame social media. It is in fact the dream tool of despots. A weapon of mind destruction.

bellinisurge · 08/04/2019 09:31

The "national strike"is basically people sitting at home grumbling and not spending money . Having lived through the actual blackouts of the early 70s, switching your tv off and doing a cat'sbum face, isn't a blackout. LMFAO, as the young people say.

MockerstheFeManist · 08/04/2019 09:34

wheresmymojo

Of course I apologise unrservedly.

By way of explanation, 'Normal' was in quotation marks, and was meant solely in the sense of corresponding to a social norm.

Peregrina · 08/04/2019 09:35

No cars, no shopping, no TV, no phones:’ Nationwide Brexit Blackout protest planned

Er, weren't we supposed to have this a couple of weeks back, with the motorways being gridlocked? What happened - two of the leaders were done for obstructing the highway, one lone lorry driver drove along the M25, but since that's heavily used by lorries, no one knew he was protesting, and a 'throng' of 12 people tried to blockade the arrival of the Brittany Ferry. Farage's march numbered about a hundred.

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 09:38

Strikes are planned for this Friday

This has made my day. A bunch of unemployed and retired people are going to stay home all day and bring the country to its knees. It's a terrifying prospect. Terrifying.

I expect it will be better attended than the sort of protest that requires you to get up off the sofa. Some people might join in without even realising it!

NoSixPlease · 08/04/2019 09:38

I love these threads. They are so informative, and ease my blood pressure with all Brexit related things. But the (thankfully rare) infighting is starting to make me sad and want to avoid the threads. Please can we stop this?

HazardGhost · 08/04/2019 09:42

Yes singing I feel exactly that

USE THE BRAKES!
NOOO!

I'm having a DP related stress attack this morning (he's fine no worse no better and unaware as he's asleep). I feel as if I'm tightrope walking while juggling and I'm a novice at both.

Game face on and on with breakfast...

woman19 · 08/04/2019 09:43

Turn off your TVs, turn off your phones
From the Grumpy strike article. Sounds like quite a nice action though.Smile I would love to have done that walk from Sunderland to London too, but the other walkers looked a bit boring and very depressed. Wink

Right, off to do my sadly (so far) Un Unionised Woman Work now.Wink

CrunchyCarrot · 08/04/2019 09:44

LMFAO indeed, bellin !

A one day strike, no cars, no electricity, no shopping, just sitting at home with the TV off

Do they think that's all there is to do once those things are off the to-do list? Hahahahaha! As for suggesting 3 days of it, ROFL! Most people are SO addicted to tech there's no way they'd survive that!