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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 06:44

otherwise the tribunal fees of £1000+ are unaffordable for most people - fees the Tories introduced to try to make justice unaffordable for workers.

Just to say Flower is completely right that the Tory wheeze on tribunal fees ( before they were abolished) made exercising employment rights unaffordable for the vast majority of workers.

If anyone doubts the true agenda on removing workers' rights you only need to google the 70% drop in employee/ workers tribunal claims.

Fortunately the fee system had to be abolished and the fees reimbursed because the unions fought back and the UK courts eventually found the government imposed fees to be illegal.

The truth exposed was that the government was happy to spend millions fighting tooth and nail to keep high tribunal fees. This was a deliberate obstacle to the people exercising their rights.

frumpety · 08/04/2019 07:12

Had a little mainly good hearted spat with an ex colleague on FB last night, he keeps posting really daft stuff about the EU and how MP's are traitors, will of the people etc.

I pointed out that the worst that would happen if the UK revoked was that maybe 650 people might need to look for a new job at the next GE. He has gone off to find out bad stuff that will definitely happen as a result of us staying in the EU, will let you know how he gets on Smile

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 07:16

Sadly though, they are trying to find a way to bring them back. Which shouldn't really be a surprise.

My sector doesn't have union support either. I'm a bit hit and miss as to whether I particularly like them for reasons given above as I don't agree with striking. I can see how they'd be useful for negotiating and collective bargaining rights though. So I'm on the fence a bit!

Flowerplower · 08/04/2019 07:18

Oh thank you lonelyplanetmum, I hadn't realised tribunal fees had been abolished. Go unions! 😀 How nice to have some good news for a change.

Flowerplower · 08/04/2019 07:19

Damn, maybe I spoke too soon NoWordForFluffy. Everything is such a rollercoaster ride nowadays.

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 07:27

I'm a bit hit and miss as to whether I particularly like them for reasons given above as I don't agree with striking.

In a relationship between business owners and workers, where the balance of power is very asymmetric, workers need to have the ability to withdraw their labour.

Stilltalkstotrees · 08/04/2019 07:32

Latest Tory brexiter dirt. I despair of these people :(

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1115028193986084865.html

lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 07:35

Flower - it's only short term good news! Although the unions (for once) defeated the government. Information during the court case suggested the government will try and bring fees back under a different scheme hopefully at a slightly lower level.

We definitely need more integrated power to the people in the form of works councils or unions though (as per the earlier thread comments). Works councils give people power not referenda!

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 07:37

{In a relationship between business owners and workers, where the balance of power is very asymmetric, workers need to have the ability to withdraw their labour.}
In the industry I work in there are no relevant unions so withdrawing labour involves a P45.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 08/04/2019 07:44

dd is taking upcoming elections very seriously, looking up candidates and the current situation at her university town. I think she registered to vote at university on her first full day there. Where we live it's been very difficult to make a difference (though the tide may be turning locally)

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 07:50

In the industry I work in there are no relevant unions so withdrawing labour involves a P45.

Snap!

Holding people to ransom is not the best form of negotiation, in my opinion.

euaresobeautiful2me · 08/04/2019 07:52

I have worked in HR related areas (and I am not a natural union supporter (I have found most unions weak and not great in their dealings unlike say in Germany where they often have a real say in the way the business operates).

I agree the decimation of tribunal fees has been appalling. Fucking appalling.

Most workers are probably unaware fees have been abolished and it is hardly something employees will advertise.

I used to be able to use tribunal claims as a stick - as in look at you manager, don't think you can behave like a bully, harasser, sexist, racist if you don't behave properly you risk a tribunal claim personally and against the business... or ceo your x manager is a sexist, racist, bully I need to get rid as he is liable to cause a great deal of damage so I will get rid via ... well you couldn't use that approach more recently at all.

I have heard of many employment solicitors who took up other specialties because the work fell away.

Don't forget the time needed to be employed to lodge an unfair dismissal case moved from 1 to 2 years.

There is bullshit from the Tory's but it isn't hard to treat employees well in the UK.

For example, I was always asked by people up the management chain to try implement those bullshit zero hours contracts, no was my answer and I never allowed one to be drawn up.

I hated the way some Management just knew they can get away with more, especially with vulnerable non-unionised employees. In reality, why would a woman on maternity leave put in a claim be expected to pay tribunal fees?

67chevvyimpala · 08/04/2019 08:02

I wonder what the venal morherfuckers in the HofC will do today?

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 08:10

{I wonder what the venal morherfuckers in the HofC will do today?}

Are you referring to the 'honourable member for pissing about in the pond'?

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 08:24

Holding people to ransom is not the best form of negotiation, in my opinion.

So what leverage do you think workers should have? Or is your idea of "negotiation" basically the same as T. May's ie you can have any compromise you like as long as it's you doing the compromising not me.

I'm not a union employee but I absolutely believe that people like sostenuto on here would have better lives if they were supported by decent employment law and strong unions.

Motheroffourdragons · 08/04/2019 08:29

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Motheroffourdragons · 08/04/2019 08:31

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 08:44

That's exactly what May is doing - bullying everybody into accepting her deal.

In the context of the discussion about unions, I don't think that you can compare May (a rich individual who our political system gives an enormous amount of personal power) with striking unionised workers.

Where the balance of power is too heavily in favour of the employer, the withdrawal of labour is an important mechanism by which workers are able to force compromise. It should be used sparingly of course. It's an ultimate resort.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 08:47

So what leverage do you think workers should have? Or is your idea of "negotiation" basically the same as T. May's ie you can have any compromise you like as long as it's you doing the compromising not me.

No. I negotiate - properly - for a living, so I actually know the best methods for doing this, and it's not stamping your feet.

There are better ways than withdrawing labour and certainly better ways than the way Mrs May conducts herself.

And striking is using exactly the same tactic as Mrs May, bullying into submission.

Unions can negotiate without withdrawing labour.

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 08:48

Unions can negotiate without withdrawing labour.

What if the other party refuses to negotiate? I imagine you work for a company with decent employee relations - as do I. But there are some terrible employers out there.

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 08:50

The main problem is that the penny hasn't dropped yet for the HoC/HoL/cabinet/UK at large, that ultimately there are only 2 choices.
Revoke or sign the WA.
The UK can thrash about legislating for unicorns but ultimately it will HAVE to sign the WA, whether this is on Friday, a year on Friday or 10 years on Friday. Refusal to think forwards and engage with the EU has caused this, made considerably worse by triggering A50.
The longer it takes to get signed, the weaker the UK becomes as indecision will prevent proper investment in UK industry.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 08:51

And striking is using exactly the same tactic as Mrs May, bullying into submission
Oh dear.

"What have Trades Unions ever done for us?"
It's a bit like the' What have the Romans ever done for us' sketch.

NoWordForFluffy · 08/04/2019 08:54

I imagine you work for a company with decent employee relations - as do I. But there are some terrible employers out there.

Not overly, but we don't have a union either as my industry doesn't. We have to move employers if we don't agree with how our firm is run. It's not terrible, admittedly, but it certainly could be better as well.

I'm aware there are terrible employers out there. I sue them for a living.

Withdrawing labour and affecting the general public, particularly in such things as care work where the client relies on that care to have any quality of life, just doesn't sit right with me.

I imagine if I worked in a unionised industry I'd possibly think differently.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 08:57

All this talk of strikes reminds me what can happen when customers strike (with a fascinating roam through imagination as to how that could be made illegal ...)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott

(And when you do want to feel pride in your nation - notice that it was Lloyds of London that stepped in to insure vehicles used to help the boycotters ....)

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 08:58

We have to move employers if we don't agree with how our firm is run.

Sure. Easy for middle class people with skills that are in short supply. Your privilege is showing.