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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/04/2019 20:44

I'm now getting emails from the Lib Dem candidates telling me why I should select them. Only it would have been more useful if they had arrived before the selection form.

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 20:44

Bigchoc
I work in an industry that has never had unions
no employer I've ever worked for has recognised unions
but my lot seem to do OK Wink

Manufacturing has the tradition of unions and worker reps
service does not

Wenttoseainasieve · 07/04/2019 20:47

@havingtochangeusernameagain

My DH and DC are Polish citizens via my Polish MIL, I absolutely jumped at the chance for my children to retain their EU citizenship, and can't understand why anyone wouldn't! I'll be the only one without, but so be it. But then I am a remainder Grin

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 20:48

I agree about avoiding being nasty and keeping mental health out of things.

I feel extremely anxious about next week, but it isn't going to help if I have a go at anyone. In fact I think that will be counter productive. Everyone had a rationale reason for their vote in 2016 even if we don't agree with it.

I think we can all now agree that it is a shit show that needs a fast resolution. Otherwise we are going to lose all our jobs & companies.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 20:51

If you are a manager or a business owner, then you might consider unions a pain, if you don't like constraints on your power over those under you.

If you are a worker with no great skill in demand and / or or aged 40+ so you aren't so marketable, then a union may be your best protection

Unions in Germany do an excellent job
No reason they couldn't again in the UK

Workers in the UK are mostly very vulnerable to employer demands

e.g. compulsory unpaid overtime is just not a thing in Germany - the unions would never allow it
It makes a great difference to quality of life

German unions protect the rights of apprentices, wrt pay, training etc and the German apprentice system is superb, one of the building blocks of their great manufacturing sector

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 20:55

TiP The service sector is poorly unionised and the workers at the lower end especially are very exploited
These facts are related

If you have a skill in demand, you can negotiate your own terms
If you are one of 20 interviewees for a job, much less so

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 21:00

BCF
compulsory unpaid overtime is just not a thing in Germany - the unions would never allow it
Maggie changed the laws in the UK
most of the lead Brexiters are Thatcherites
the EU wanted to restrict zero hours
the dots join up

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 21:11

Totally agree with BCF about unions.

Raab might be in trouble ... James Chapman on twitter talking about an NDA regarding treatment of a female member of staff.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 21:12

Maggie changed the laws in the UK
If Labour had repealed the 1992 Trades Union Act, arguably, Brexit would not have happened.

Some may not like Trades Unions, but like the European Union.........
Many like the benefits and civil rights they /we won for generations of British workers.
Our children would have too. Sad

Peregrina · 07/04/2019 21:15

I'm now getting emails from the Lib Dem candidates telling me why I should select them. Only it would have been more useful if they had arrived before the selection form.

Me too - voted yesterday. Put the three people I knew first and the rest in order of what I thought of their manifestos.

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 21:22

My original point was probably lost in that Unions need to move with the times and be intelligent. Yes they have a place, but they needed to focus on things that are realisable. Teaching union that declares a 1 day strike but due to the way salaries are calculated they lose a day and a half pay.

HesterThrale · 07/04/2019 21:51

Aargh, why do I still let myself get so angry about these aspects of the whole sorry debacle?
Watching TM say 'the country voted to leave...blah blah...' I just feel so completely ignored by that, and so must millions of others. Surely not a good electoral ploy to always utterly disregard 16 million voters?
And hearing again getting rid of FOM portrayed as a good goal. It's such a trope now, but I bet there are still people who don't realise it goes two ways and that we are losing our 'right to roam' too. I will always feel angry about Leavers voting to remove our rights.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 21:55

Teaching union that declares a 1 day strike
Teachers haven't been on strike for many years, as far as I know.

The effective abolition of trades union representation might mean your teachers are using a food bank to keep other teachers in front of your kids.
www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/30/teachers-volunteer-pay-cut-save-colleagues-jobs-furzedown-funding

woman19 · 07/04/2019 21:58

EU citizens in UK, can of course vote in forth coming local elections
Please encourage others to register Smile Star
www.yourvotematters.co.uk/can-i-vote/who-can-register-to-vote?fbclid=IwAR2ICYZq1FXGCh7hOxL5L7SxHibCK-VxooKFhIDaRbH_wRv2VPY1tM3BRA8

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2019 22:01

Okk....

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 07/04/2019 22:02

A pledge for the internet to be stricter than China??!

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
OP posts:
HesterThrale · 07/04/2019 22:06

Good point, woman19.

And we should all encourage our sixth-form DC to register. In case they turn 18 in the next few months. There may well be elections before the next annual registration letter comes round.

Here's the direct link:

www.gov.uk/register-to-vote

HesterThrale · 07/04/2019 22:09

Also on the DT front page:

'Boris: Tory MPs will rally to stop May's Customs Union surrender.'

Hmmm...

Sostenueto · 07/04/2019 22:11

Labour now expressing frustration at no movement from TM.
Something has to happen, we have 5 days ffs!

What happens if there is a revoke? Will there then be a GE?
Will EU definitely give us an extension?
So many questions and no answers.Sad
I'm really getting agitated now at the thought of a no deal.
I just gate not knowing. I can cope with anything thrown at me usually as I think of the worst and if I can cope with that then I can cope with anything but I can't work out why I'm not coping very well with Brexit.Confused a few weeks ago I was a lot more positive but tbh I cannot find anything positive in the last two weeks.
I think I will go and hide in a cupboard.Grin

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 22:20

If anyone makes me angry it's TM! She's like a broken record. Angry

She must be incredibly difficult to try to get a 'compromise' out of. I doubt Labour will manage it. I don't believe there will be a Revoke at this point, she will die before that happens. And there's no 'definite' extension from the EU as we know some of them would boot us out with a no deal even though others wouldn't.

I am going to bed and hoping NOT to dream about flipping Brexit.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 22:20

I remember an economics lecturer when I was at Uni (c40 years ago Blush) talking about how the Works Councils in Germany contributed to the increased productivity and better GDP of Germany and that they had been set up as result of advice from the UK after WW2 ShockConfused

He was also one of the ACAS negotiating team (so he would be called away during "big" strikes when ACAS got called in) so he may have had a particular interest in the idea and value of Works Councils Wink

Going back to discussion of politicians and their charisma or not : dh met Tony Blair on a number of occasions through his work and always felt that TB was continually looking over his (dh's) shoulder to see if there was someone "more important" Hmm to talk to, all the while taking the credit for the work that dh's team had done and that wasn't even directly in the remit of the WM Government Hmm

Donald Dewar was ok and sincere - it was a big loss when he died (as of course, was the death of the late lamented John Smith - would we even be in this situation if he'd lived? Sad)

Nicola Sturgeon, on the other hand, always makes you feel that she is interested in you whether or not she actually is in a very personal way - in the way that I've read Bill Clinton always made you feel that you were the centre of the room.

Alex Salmond I would say was in the middle between TB and Nicola in the way he appeared to be interested in you.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 22:27

For me personally a no deal would almost be preferable to a customs union, as neither preserves my right to live with my children in my own home, and a customs union will be served with less popcorn.

There is definitely a part of me that will be cheering Macron on if he decides to say "fuck you".

Then I remember that no deal also screws the Irish and the Scottish who didn't vote for this...

I’m truly sorry Brexit is affecting your life in such a profound way Misti but I’m horrified that you’d almost rather have No Deal because your own personal circumstances will be the much same either way and No Deal comes with more popcorn?

No Deal doesn’t screw the Irish and the Scottish who didn’t vote for this, it screws all of us, Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English.

Perhaps, should my DH be unable to get his Parkinson’s medication, you might like to bring your popcorn to our house and have a good laugh while he struggles to move or to eat. Hopefully he won’t aspirate some food into his lungs, wouldn’t want to put you off your popcorn.

AuldAlliance · 07/04/2019 22:27

prettybird I try not to think of what might have been had John Smith not died so young.
That ultimately paved the way for Blair, who was not all bad but not half the man Smith was, and the rest is depressing history.

YY to Dewar.

A. Salmond, according to friends who worked at Holyrood, was known far and wide for the issues he has recently been charged with, and many female colleagues gave him a wide berth.

Motheroffourdragons · 07/04/2019 22:34

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