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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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OublietteBravo · 07/04/2019 19:27

I doubt TM would’ve been as forgiving

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 19:28

With Theresa 'in charge', North Korea is almost looking attractive.
I may need some assistance with a suitably long string of exceedingly uncomplimentary things to say about her and her supporters.

MockerstheFeManist · 07/04/2019 19:33

Of our postwar PMs, only Attlee, Macmillan, Callaghan and Major were 'normal.'

All the rest had various psychiatric problems: Churchill was a manic depressive. Eden was psychotic. Wilson was paranoid. Thatcher had daddy issues. Blair was hubristic with a messiah complex. Brown was A-Spectrum, and Cameron had delusions of Adequacy.

cherin · 07/04/2019 19:44

Well now, being a full time politician and a PM is not really “normal”, right? I mean, it’s not like too many premier league politicians are “normal”, all over the world

mathanxiety · 07/04/2019 19:45

Leavers are very very unlikely to come up with a plan to "keep the UK as it was pre referendum" because they voted for CHANGE. If Remainers are able to deliver keeping everything they want whilst also honouring the vote to Leave and delivering Taking Back Control so that the "Burning Injustices" can be tackled then Leavers are All ears.
Howabout
Yes they did vote for Change. That does not equal Brexit.

How does this sound -
Stop rolling out Universal Credit.
Develop a plan to revitalise those regions of the UK that have been systematically destroyed as a result of policies that shifted the UK economy from production to financial services.
Bring all schools up to the standard of independent schools' facilities and staffing, provide extra curricular activities/pay teachers to do this, mentoring of students/pay teachers to do this.
Improve beyond recognition the provision of third level technical/vocational education and create a meaningful and standardised apprenticeship route to accreditation/certification/work.
Give unions back their teeth.

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 19:50

It sounds like a good plan to me math, but the problem is that people are really radicalised against the EU.

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 19:52

mathanxiety
your list is nice but it will not fit legislation and where we are now
try this for size

  • cancel "right to buy"
  • cancel all taxpayer subsidies for home purchases
  • allow councils to invest in domestic properties for rent
  • change the Universal credit accumulator to 33% rather than 66%
  • bring in council tax band I to Z pending full revaluations
  • force all UK crown dependencies to publish full open company registers

shockingly that lot will release far more capital into the UK tax purse in one year than Brexit would in a decade
and it would reduce long term inequality

PestyMachtubernahme · 07/04/2019 19:56

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.
Charles de Gaulle

We don't have seasonal workers because of universal credit. In the day and age of the computer, why could they not work out a system that encourages the 'do as much work as you can get' ?
This whole fecking 'Well Bob, you have picked peas for two months, why can't you try harder and pick peas all year? No benefits for 6 months' attitude stinks.

Peregrina · 07/04/2019 19:57

Politicians and ministers were unable to respond to popular concerns about immigration because membership of the European Union meant they were unable to back words with action. When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.

Above extract from Peter Oborne's article. Not true and you should know it. However the rest is stuff we could have told him two and a half years ago if he had but bothered to listen. Still, it's a start.

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 19:58

{Give unions back their teeth.}
I disagree with this. Unions are a 'blunt instrument' in 'modern' workplaces and since many things have a global basis there is no real leverage.
Making workplaces fit to work in so that unions aren't necessary.

Another point, why do those who voted remain have to do anything to please 'leavers'. What is wrong with Leavers coming up with some plans, surely 3 years is enough to jot a few things down.
At the end of this coming week the UK is supposed to be leaving and will have to come up with it's own plans, not having it's hand held by the EU. Northern powerhouse, Taking back control etc, Leading the world with new businesses, where are ANY of the plans for this?

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 20:04

FWIW my economic reform list long predates Brexit
it can be found on the Money boards here and o other forums where I use the same name

Brexit is the symptom
not the cause

borntobequiet · 07/04/2019 20:09

Oh dear. I too have delusions of adequacy.
Maybe I should forget about a career in politics.

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 20:14

Pesty
UC misunderstands at an utterly fundamental level the world of agricultural work
for the last 100 years it has been seasonal
stff that folks did in between other things

  • being POWs
  • being students
  • being travellers
  • being seasonal migrants

but the muppets who invented UC dealt with belief rather than EVIDENCE

wheresmymojo · 07/04/2019 20:21

Okay....I know I've jumped a couple of times at things being said about MH on here but this is offensive @MockerstheFeManist
*
"Of our postwar PMs, only Attlee, Macmillan, Callaghan and Major were 'normal.'

All the rest had various psychiatric problems: Churchill was a* manic depressive..."

lonelyplanetmum · 07/04/2019 20:24

Maybe I should forget about a career in politics.

I think you are just the sort of person politics needs, Born.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 20:30

leclerc I totally disagree about unions
Their muscle & manpower were at the forefront of creating the Labout party, which replaced the liberals as a major party and hence provided what was then a party representing wc people.

Unions are a force multiplier for workers who have little power alone
analagous to countries banding together in a Union

They enable collective bargaining - and a good union will ensuren transparent pay scales for each job,
so people doing identical jobs at identical grades know they are paid the same amounts,
instead of depending on their individual negotiating ability

  • especially important for women, who are socialised to generally not ask for enough

Thatcher deliberately set out to hamstring unions by a series of anti trade unions laws, some of which haven't been repealed

This is one of the factors that has led to the stagnation / reduction in real terms of the average wage,
as workers too often are left to negotiate their own pay.
Most individuals can't negotiate as well as the professionals, with numbers and the ability to strike on their side

PestyMachtubernahme · 07/04/2019 20:31

I picked fruit and veg as a teen, it was rather well paid.

TalkinPaece · 07/04/2019 20:35

Pesty
My sister did work for a legal firm that was the well paid
now its an "intrenship"
Zero hours contracts have a lot to answer for (and the EU wanted to ban them) ....

bigchoc
Unions did their job
they did it well
but once what they campaigned for became law they became peripheral
and too many of them are staffed by overpaid dinosaurs (in the UK anyway)

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 20:36

Churchill was considered to have bipolar disorder, alcoholism and dyslexia.... i think. They miss out the middle one on the senco's inspirational SEN icon boards.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 07/04/2019 20:36

I have a friend whose wife's parents are Irish so their sons qualify for Irish passports. He didn't think it was a good idea for them to apply for them. I thought why on earth wouldn't you if you qualified? I would! Sadly only my mother qualifies in our family.

Maybe he didn't want to be the only one in the family without an EU passport but I wouldn't cut off my sons' life chances if they had the opportunity to keep them. The elder son wants to do Spanish A level so it makes perfect sense for him to have the chance to work there when he's older.

bellinisurge · 07/04/2019 20:40

They don't qualify for passports with an Irish born grandparent unless they get on the Foreign Birth Register first. Which takes at least 6 months.

wheresmymojo · 07/04/2019 20:40

I know he's considered to have bipolar....but forgive me for being touchy about people saying I'm not 'normal' (and no, the air quotes don't make it better).

I think overall it would be good to keep mental health out of Brexit conversations...there's no reason to reference MH. It's not relevant, there are no parallels, there's really no need.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 20:41

TiP Rights are eroded all the time, or ignored by unscrupulous emplyers.

Without unions, many workers have little power,
a minority of workers are in demand for their skills and can negotiate good terms

In Germany, every firm has a Works Council and workers have more rights than in the uk
We still have unions and they are indeed useful, especially in wage negotiations

PestyMachtubernahme · 07/04/2019 20:43

Unions do annoy me a bit. I used to run a company that employed 25 people. We had three apprentices, we had to pay them 90% of the full wage. A good apprentice halves your best workman's productivity. Eventually we had to reduce down to one every three years and then he would be a workman's sprog. Strangely enough I was the only woman to ever do their apprenticeship there, not one other woman ever applied.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 20:43

or in negotiating redundancy terms, holiays etc

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