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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

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DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 12:45

So todays BBC Headlines: May: I had to approach Labour over Brexit is effectively an admission that we can't have a Tory Brexit. Obviously we can't have a Labour Brexit.

So whatever Brexit we do get will be the one that 20% of the electorate didn't want plus another 40% (assuming an equal Lab/Con split).

So whatever we get will have been already rejected by 60% of the electorate ??????

That's before we go outside the UK to talk of extensions.

An electorate, by the way, that demonstrated 3 days ago that (a) Brexit isn't really a thing any more and (b) even it it was, it's not enough to cause Labour voters to desert the party.

It's a testament to how shit Corbyn is that he didn't enter any talks psychologically holding the upper hand (although I concede if he had, we'd never know).

OogieMcBoogie · 07/04/2019 12:54

From the Guardian online just now:

Leading Conservative backbench Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg on Sunday reiterated his proposal for the UK to seek to veto EU budgets and other disruptions if it stayed.

“I don’t think the EU, in its jargon, has behaved towards us with sincere cooperation,” he told Sky News’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday, meaning “we are no longer obliged to follow sincere cooperation in return”.

He said: “When the multi-annual financial framework comes forward, if we are still in, this is our one-in-seven-year opportunity to veto the budget and to be really very difficult, and I hope that any British prime minister would take that opportunity.”

Doubletrouble99 · 07/04/2019 12:56

having to change - It's not the 'unelected Bureaucrats' that are elected in EU elections!! It's the MEPs who don't make decisions that are elected. The Bureaucrats are the 'civil service' of the EU that make the decisions.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 12:59

I've gone overboard with tins of condensed milk Blush

But there again, I can use them to make my fabulous Wink tablet and use that for bartering Grin I do occasionally send some out to Westministenders Smile

Dontlickthetrolley · 07/04/2019 13:03

30 Knorr stock pots, 15 lamb stock cubes and another 8 chicken stock cubes here 🤷🤦🤣

woman19 · 07/04/2019 13:04

He is getting more extreme. Nasty
Fear.

@GuitarMoog
Truly a new low in UK politics and diplomacy.

Our Government has brought us to the point that even remainers like me wonder if the EU are better off shot of us. Who can blame those in EU27 who think that now?

Just remember though, this is by design. It’s what Brexiters want. 1/Steve Bullock added,

"@LiamFox 'joked that Emmanuel Macron was sleeping with his grandmother' in jibe at the French President's older wife after he blocked Theresa May's Brexit extension"

Shock

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894471/Liam-Fox-joked-Emmanuel-Macron-sleeping-grandmother-Brexit-extension-block.html

‏Giving into that nagging feeling is giving in to the Brexiters’ anti-cooperation, xenophobic, truth-free, Kremlin-approved vision. 2/

Brexit may be a cautionary tale to the mainstream in EU27 Member States, but in a world where reality can be so easily denied and the truth blurred to the point of myopia, it will be a victory, a clarion call, proof of concept to the far-right of Europe. 3/

The UK remaining would be a reset of that. Proof that, yes, they can create chaos, but that they will ultimately fail to destabilise the continent

TheMShip · 07/04/2019 13:05

Oops sorry about not checking the numbers on that tweet about the leave majority. I can only plead lack of coffee. I agree with the poster who said it looked like someone had divided by two one time too many. Still lead to interesting discussion so I guess not all bad.

My normally very chill husband presented me with a Brexit stockpile shopping list last night. I've been dithering about it for ages, but that was enough of a surprise that I actually went out and did it this morning. He and the kids have had a ball finding places for everything.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 13:08

Last hopeful little bit of the lovely @GuitarMoog's thread

That even with the most determined, coordinated, funded campaign of information warfare, scapegoating and populist rabble-rousing, rationality, community and cooperation will still ultimately prevail. 4/

Right, off out for lunch in deepest darkest Toriest 'home counties' ; with almost whole family in EU Blue and badges. Smile

prettybird · 07/04/2019 13:11

I was listening to LBC in the kitchen yesterday afternoon while I was making my birthday Othello cake.

One of the callers was genuinely justifying the need to Brexit because "the EU has some right wing parties and the UK was absolutely right to leave as it needs to protect itself from a right wing Fascist EU" Confused

woodpigeons · 07/04/2019 13:19

We need to organise our freezers.
We were given a fridge freezer so have 2 of them and a small chest freezer.
Experience in very hot countries has showed that with power cuts non perishable things will last for at least 2 days if the freezer isn’t opened.
So need to put meat, fish all in one place but don’t think there’s much of that.
Do you think that thinking about our stockpiles is displacement activity from thinking about Brexit and things like medication shortages ?

chocolateworshipper · 07/04/2019 13:21

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (these threads move so quick) - I'm on a anti-Brexit FB page where more than one person is saying that village halls that act as polling stations are being asked for their availability for 23rd May. Watch this space.

dreichuplands · 07/04/2019 13:26

prettybird condensed milk can be turned into dulce de leche easily in a slow cooker if you need another use for it.

AuldAlliance · 07/04/2019 13:30

My mother, despite various warnings from both me and my sister, is on holiday in rural France.
I think she is planning to return to the UK on the 13th.
My brother, whose carer she is, has very serious epilepsy.
Given that she ignored our advice re travel, I'm guessing she hasn't thought to check up about his meds.
I can't do anything about it, from abroad, can I?
Sad

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 13:32

{But as many have pointed out - it's so odd that we suddenly do have power in the EU.}

Sadly it is currently the power of destruction. It is difficult to enforce being 'nice', especially if there are an assortment of tensions going on.
The man (or woman) in the moon could look at Brexit and ask why a few hundred (perhaps) in Northern Ireland are prepared to bomb and maim to gain leverage and are effectively holding the whole of the EU to ransom. How come French/German/Polish/Spanish even Russians who have all had devastating 'scraps' with each other over the centuries can manage to live in peace, even if it is a bit 'sensitive' in areas?
An authoritarian regime might 'solve' this by rounding up all those willing to bomb and maim and put them somewhere remote to sort themselves out.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 13:36

dreichuplands - my mum used to boil it for 3 hours to turn it into caramel Shock - probably only two hours for dulce to leche Wink. I was very pissed off when Gary Rhodes publicised the "family secret" Shock

I used to take up a tin to Uni and eat it a spoonful at a time. I'm not sure I could be so restrained now Blush

A favourite childhood dessert was "caramel with cream": essentially a quarter of a tin of boiled condensed milk each, served with single cream. Alternatively a birthdsay special request dessert was home made choux buns filled with caramel and whipped cream. Believe it or not, we were a slim family! ShockGrin

bellinisurge · 07/04/2019 13:40

@chocolateworshipper , I'm getting the same info from people I know who are involved with the logistics of elections. A "get ready just in case " message.

borntobequiet · 07/04/2019 13:41

I don’t know much about Mary Dejevsky other than she seems to know her stuff about Russia and regularly gets slagged off by both right and left wing commentators, but I found this article interesting - Brexit as a civil war being fought in Parliament rather than battlefields across the country
www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-houses-of-parliaments-protesters-fighting-a8855476.html

Dontlickthetrolley · 07/04/2019 13:41

We've had an email from the school saying that it will be closed on 23rd for EU elections, unless Brexit is sorted before then!

vanitythynameisnotwoman · 07/04/2019 13:47

Doubletrouble assuming that's a genuine question, no, we don't vote for EU 'civil servants'. We don't seem to be so worried by having 8 times as many civil servants here in the UK.

The fact UKIP have MEPs and no MPs is really because PR makes the EU parliament "more" democratic than anything.

There's a James O'Brien thread crediting the 'good' MEPs #Decent MEP and it's good to see some from across the different pro European parties. One of the NW MEPs, Julie Ward, always points out that the 17.4million is not valid because of the law breaking in the referendum etc. I might have left the Labour Party but I'd still vote for her.
Voting and campaigning independent for the local elections though.

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
borntobequiet · 07/04/2019 13:56

The European Commission doesn’t make decisions. That’s the job of the European Parliament. The commission proposes policy. MEPs - who are elected - vote on it.
The EU, as a body of many different countries, requires a branch to develop and oversee policy. The Commission, despite being called the EU “Civil Service”, is in reality not similar to the U.K. Civil Service, which exists to facilitate Government policies.
ec.europa.eu/info/about-european-commission_en
And golly gosh, citizens can get involved!
ec.europa.eu/info/about-european-commission/get-involved_en

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 13:56

JacobReesMogg

If a long extension leaves us stuck in the EU we should be as difficult as possible. We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes.

He is getting more extreme. Nasty.

No. I think he’s always been this extreme and nasty. He’s just showing it more now.

GeistohneGrenzen · 07/04/2019 13:56

wherearemychickens I have apparently gone a bit mad with the golden syrup - I really don't think we needed 6 tins!

I have knowingly bought one tin of golden syrup - but wist not for why, as I haven't used any for years! Maybe I reasoned that some day I'd be in dire need of flapjack, which I make exceedingly good Grin

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 13:59

If nothing else, the foreign narrative is biting.

DB says speaking to a few "movers and shakers" (as he's now a US entrepreneur, apparently ...) and any attraction the UK had as an investment destination is long gone. They believe the New York Times over any amount of Brexitwash the government is peddling.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 14:00

I have more chick peas than I hope to ever need. I have golden syrup and condensed milk envy Smile

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 14:02

Do you think that thinking about our stockpiles is displacement activity from thinking about Brexit and things like medication shortages ?

woodpigeon In a way, yes. However it calms me down somewhat as I know I have supplies in store no matter what befalls us, whether it's Brexit or being snowed in. I have quite a few dietary requirements and it's helped put my mind at ease (or at least, less stressed than I was!).