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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ElenadeClermont · 07/04/2019 14:06

Re: Jacob Rees Mogg. I cannot believe how far this wonderful country has fallen. Our only power is to be little shits. Sad

borntobequiet · 07/04/2019 14:07

We could get a barter system going involving condensed milk, chick peas, golden syrup and (in my case) Basmati rice, I have enough to last me years.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 14:07

poster In our system, the Official Opposition is supposed to be the alternate government

In a national crisis, I expect the Official Opposition to step up and help

dimsum123 · 07/04/2019 14:09

I've been contacted about my availability to work in the local polling station on 23 May, with the caveat it may not happen. But i think it will. Afaic we are one teeny tiny step closer to revoke. Smile

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 14:10

I can throw red lentils into the barter mix - massively over supplied on those too :)

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 14:12

We have actually found it really useful having a stockpile - it's meant we haven't run out of anything for weeks now. If we run out in the kitchen, there's generally been a top up somewhere in the house, so I think we will make this change in shopping permanent, just tone down on the quantities involved if/when we get past all this uncertainty.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 14:13

Thought that DGR in particular would enjoy this one Grin:

www.facebook.com/thomassjcowley?tn=%2CdCH-R-R&eid=ARAivi4gr0N4dEjX8YhYgWDTEczRZ1Gr5EQINWFVypS3aZM9KEko6Nrxhdwle1l_p2Lvs3HL1aClV5Sj&hc_ref=ART6fL7hVNyqLqHFHF34wFb91U-yFCU8B5GQM0dqDAgwd6hYzGtmQX1W3sintFP8hQA&fref=nf

Let's say Brexit was an IT project sold by the Tory company sales team three years ago. They've been trying to implement it for the last three years, since the initial deal closed.

The salesman left the company as soon as the deal closed, taking a fat wedge of commission with him. Everyone thinks he's a wanker now and to be honest a lot of people did when he was at the company, but he did a cracking job at selling stuff - even when he didn't believe in it.

The presales consultants promised all sorts of amazing functionality, which hadn't been developed before the sale. They're now working on other deals, so don't really care about this project, because it's with delivery now.

The engineers tasked with developing the functionality are tying themselves up in knots just trying to agree the statement of works for the new features with the customer, who won't sign off the statement of works, as it doesn't look anything like what was in the original proposal.

The customer is getting really pissy - some of the stakeholders are annoyed the project is running so late, some didn't want the new soluton in the first place and quite a lot of the senior management who supported it have 'moved on', so support for the project is really weak.

At some point it's likely there will be a board meeting and the project will get canned, because it isn't deliverable. The company will probably go after the salesman in the courts, a number of people will lose their jobs and the accounts for this period are going to look terrible because of the disruption this massive 'transformational' project has caused.

Meanwhile the competition has cleared off into the middle distance, taking a lot of the company's customers with it and our company is going to have to figure out how the hell we make up the lost ground.

Could be worse, the stakeholders might insist the project gets delivered because we're so far down the line and we then spend at least a decade trying to make it work, before replacing it with another system that looks very much like the system we had before this new system was deployed.

GeistohneGrenzen · 07/04/2019 14:15

A couple of tins of cocoa and a couple of Everfresh sourdough sprouted rye loaves which I bought around last October. I opened one this week and it was fine -a bit stodgy but good toasted. Still within date!

GeistohneGrenzen · 07/04/2019 14:17

^^ that post was for the barter system Smile

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 14:18

prettybird Grin Tx !

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 14:22

Geistohnegrenzen I love cocoa & Everfresh sprouted bread too - we have the same taste in goodies !

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 14:28

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/aaronfreedman/false-victimhood-kills?bftwuk=&utm_term=4ldqpgm&ref=hpsplash

The Power of False Victimhood

"So what is to be done? The vast majority of white men will never turn to mass violence, but a wide culture of false victimhood gives a dangerous feeling of legitimacy to those who do pick up arms. Class traitors within the midst of white men of course have a key part to play in challenging the signature tone of entitlement and self-victimhood in conversations about everything from affirmative action to dating.

But ultimately, the only way to beat false victimhood will be a politics that gets beyond the us–them dichotomies of identity. The renewal in the West of a vision for social and economic rights for all, built around class struggle, is encouraging. The best way to beat counterrevolution, after all, is with the real thing.

Have I missed the vision renewal of social and economic rights?

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 14:30

Debate between those EU members who would offer only a short extension / long / none

Very different to the 2 years of negotiations, when Barnier went jetting round the E27 to get unanimous consent on everything in advance

The EU ambassadors meeting last week had several speaking against a long extension unless for PV / GE / genuine plan
but also Germany, Ireland & others in favour of extending on "whatever"

Charles Grantt@CER*Grant

Fabian speaks for senior figures in Brussels and Paris.

What he says should alarm those who hope, like Tusk, Merkel & most serious Brit pols, that a long extension can prevent a crash out
.@CEREU

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 14:31

I have no golden syrup or stock cubes. I will rectify this forthwith! I think I'll get more ground ginger, mixed spice etc too. Plus chocolate chips.

No lentils as we don't really use them much.

We have loads of tuna and chopped tomatoes plus baked beans, kidney beans and soup. A sack of pasta and a big bag of rice.

I just want to be able to bloody start eating it as our food shopping bills will plummet when we can. I just hope it's because of either a deal or long extension rather than necessity due to no deal, however.

TheNorthWestPawsage · 07/04/2019 14:33

The anger I feel towards leave voters and brexiters in parliament is not dissipating. In fact, as every week of this epic clusterfuck goes by its getting stronger.

Usually I only lurk on these threads as I am always at least 100 posts behind and depend on catcing up on my daily commute and weekends. But briefly delurking to say to 67chevvyimpala that you are not alone in your anger. Your entire post at 09.00 could have been written by me.

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 14:37

3 years of trying to decide IN or OUT and still no answer. They haven't even started to think about HOW whatever gets decided can actually be implemented, short of declaring marshal law and hiding underground.

lonelyplanetmum · 07/04/2019 14:38

I'm actually visiting another family (with 5 DC between) us so hard to be phone gazing and follow the thread but just wanted to say there's some amazing people on here:

Woman your calculations of those denied a vote and no one to speak for them. The illogicality that gets me is the Tories 'have to Brexit' because they promised it in their manifesto blah blah - yet restoring voting rights for citizens living in the EU for more than 15 years was promised in a manifesto before the ref.

Postnot - your situation made my heart palpitate with anger at the hitch in epilepsy medicine and suppression of this reality. It's outrageous. Why suppress it. How can people assess if this is right if facts are suppressed.

Chrynchcarrot -loads
of admiration for your articulate honesty and realisations.

Singing oh my goodness your Leadsome nightmare- that was not a dream!

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 14:40

In my opinion Leave voters were lied to a lot. The 'them' and 'us' civil war doesn't help.

Also nobody specified what 'leave' would look like as there are multiple possible ways to leave, with varying levels of economic mess.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 14:49

I do NOT feel anger towards ordinary Leave voters
It's counter-productive anyway, to keep slagging them off - just hardens their position to No Deal

I do feel fury at the utter irresponsibility of Cameron for calling a bloody stupid referendum and organising it in such a bloody stupid way,

So the Leave campaign could promise everything to everybody, including those who just wanting to kick Cameron in the bollocks

And I blame the Leave campaign too, for being such a bunch of unscrupulous, lying - and imo delusion - bastards

eusers · 07/04/2019 14:51

Totally agree bigchoc

MelanieCheeks · 07/04/2019 14:52

Yes, if only someone had had the converations before the referendum:

What does Norway do? Do they like that? Why does that work for them? Could it for us? Or is it too dependent on Norway-specific things?

Switzerland - what set up do they have? Is it good? Why? Could we copy the good bits? What doesn't work so well?

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 14:53

In my opinion Leave voters were lied to a lot.

The whole electorate was lied to. Leavers aren't some sort of separate entity within the UK - no matter what they think or how they act.

67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 15:00

Sorry to hear that northwest

It's a miserable way to feel :(

Motheroffourdragons · 07/04/2019 15:00

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

eusers · 07/04/2019 15:00

And sorry I can't bear watching the news at the moment... re the latest thinking

is it now likely that a hard Brexit will happen?