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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

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SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 11:44

It is difficult to justify No Deal not being on a PV when it is clearly neck & neck with Remain - and far more popular than all the other variations of Leave

Depends what you mean by justify. If you mean to defend or uphold something as right or reasonable I think that can be done.

When the cabinet asks the country’s most senior civil servant for advice on the risks of no deal and he warns of a lack of national security, law and order breaking down, the police unable to protect the public, food prices rising by 10%, the worst recession in a decade and direct rule for NI I’d say that’s justification enough.

And of course the Health Minister has basically said people will die.

If by justify you mean convince people who are determined we should leave without a deal and will not listen to reason then yes, you’re right.

The Government is supposed to govern ^in the national interest*. That’s their job. That’s their primary responsibility. They can’t ask for the advice and then ignore it. To put No Deal on a ballot paper would be an utter dereliction of duty.

Completely agree with doIreally, sometimes the grownups have to make the decisions. I wish we had a few more of them in government.

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:44

@BigChocFrenzy - That is a different point to saying the GFA makes No Deal illegal. It doesn't

I never said the GFA makes no deal illegal and I don't think anyone else did either (caveat - I haven't read the full thread as it moves too fast). I said no deal breaks an international peace treaty, which it does.

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 11:45

@ShippersUnbound
At the start of the 2017 general election campaign the age at which, on average, voters moved from being Labour to Tory was 34. By the end of that campaign it was 47. Now it is 51. If that doesn’t put the fear of god in Conservatives nothing will

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-ability-to-rule-in-peril-as-under-50s-shun-party-wxtgn6c25

A Party with a death wish.

Letterkennie · 07/04/2019 11:54

I’ve been trying really hard to follow it all but I’m not well. Can you tell me if I’ve got this right?

So, France may veto the request for an extension on Wednesday and that will mean that we leave the E.U. on Friday with no deal. Does that mean we have no withdrawal agreement/trade deal, or are we essentially adrift?

And does No Deal mean a hard border in Norn?

If TM and JC and whoever, finally get their shit together on Monday and pass something then do we still need the extension we are asking for on Wednesday?

And are you stockpiling?

Thanks!

The80sweregreat · 07/04/2019 11:54

Angela Leadsom is the type of woman I have actively avoided all my life.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 11:54

no deal breaks an international peace treaty, which it does

This article (about the DUP &tories) from those heady carefree days in 2017 shows it is unlikely, but possible for legal liability under international law.

theconversation.com/how-international-law-could-scupper-a-tory-deal-with-the-dup-79583

woman19 · 07/04/2019 11:55

'heady carefree' Hmm Wink

TatianaLarina · 07/04/2019 11:56

What I am saying is that the EU has put Ireland and the GFA before the economic intersts of the other 450 million, which should be acknowledged - and is what the Brexiters and UK govt never expected.

The EU position on NI is not simply to protect the GFA but also to protect the single market from the US.

ERGers intention was to renege on any terms set out in the WA because none of it dictates our future trade relationship, hence the need for the backstop.

Their plan was a trade deal with US and maybe join CPTPP to be in direct competition with EU and gain a backdoor entry into the SM via an open border in Ireland.

It’s in the EU’s economic interest to protect the SM.

Ellie56 · 07/04/2019 12:10

At the start of the 2017 general election campaign the age at which, on average, voters moved from being Labour to Tory was 34. By the end of that campaign it was 47. Now it is 51. If that doesn’t put the fear of god in Conservatives nothing will.

And what about those who switch the other way?

I've usually voted for our local Tory MP as she has always been highly supportive of people with autism and a few years ago stood up in Parliament, calling for more support for people with autism and their families. In the same speech she lambasted our LA and the neighbouring LA for failing children and young people with autism, citing the disgraceful length of time it took to get EHCPs in both authorities.

I felt hugely grateful to her at the time, as this coincided with a very stressful and exhausting fight with our LA, for an EHCP and appropriate educational provision for our then 19 year old autistic son.

Not saying I'll vote Labour, but I won't be voting for her again. She's one of the ERG and has consistently voted against or abstained on everything.

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 12:14

Anyway, the HoC can vote on a PV, but the independent Electoral Commission can refuse to accept the options, if they believe it is vote-fixing

The HoC can abolish the IEC first.

OublietteBravo · 07/04/2019 12:19

In the event of no deal, we’ll still end up with something akin to the WA before the EU will negotiate with us. Therefore, surely it is dishonest to put no deal on the ballot paper in any referendum? It’s obviously a ‘real’ option (which is why so many of us are worried right now), but only in the very short term. Pretending it is a ‘solution’ to the thorny Brexit issues in the WA (especially the backstop) is completely ludicrous.

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 12:20

The Troubles certainly spilled over onto the mainland last time. Bombs at Harrods, Hyde Park/Regents Park, MP Airey Neave blown up in his car at the HOC, bombs in Birmingham, Warrington, Brighton, Guildford - and they are just the ones I remember.

I think strategic thinking would steer away from such actions. I'd be amazed if there hasn't been some thoughts in IRA-type circles of a much more effective campaign. Crashing a few banks systems for example. Look at the chaos an impact on the NHS of the WannaCry scare. Previously the public would read about what (for them) was a distant atrocity and tut and move on to the sport. Much harder for them to ignore not being able to bank for 72 hours.

Bearing in mind there are a lot of bad states out there that would happily dip their toes in testing their cyber capabilities through a willing front man like Irish nationalism. We return to the Libya (and US) funding of the IRA.

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 12:21

And what about those who switch the other way?

Ellie I think there will be quite a few who are alienated by the hardline ERG. I think this is why they are not going for a General Election.

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 12:23

Letterkennie, I am stockpiling yes. Going through it all this morning in fact to see where I've got gaps.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 12:25

In the event of no deal, we’ll still end up with something akin to the WA before the EU will negotiate with us. Therefore, surely it is dishonest to put no deal on the ballot paper in any referendum?

That’s such an interesting point Oubliette.

What would an ardent No Dealer’s argument be against this?

DGRossetti · 07/04/2019 12:28

So, France may veto the request for an extension on Wednesday and that will mean that we leave the E.U. on Friday with no deal. Does that mean we have no withdrawal agreement/trade deal, or are we essentially adrift?

If the UK leaves the EU without a formal arrangement (deal) for continued access to the institutes of the EU, then yes. We are adrift. The EU have stated they'd engage in a bare-minimum mode. So flights will continue, and people can move. But goods would be subject to customs checks and other "invisible" services would cease. It will be a great time for people whose livelihoods are Business Continuity and Disaster Recovery, as we'll get to see what happens when huge swathes of data suddenly go dark. It's a little akin to cutting the power to a building and seeing what has been put in place to mitigate it. Will the lifts stop between floors ? Will the sprinkler system work ? Will there be emergency lighting for escape ? Will the security systems lock open or lock shut ?

It's a very interesting exercise. You don't often get to play around with real lives at that scale very often. Whatever happens, it will probably be studied for years around the world. In fact, I can see "Brexit-proof" being a great sales pitch for decades.

This backup system, it will survive floods ?
More than that, it's be tested to be Brexit-proof.
Sign me up !

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 12:29

am stockpiling yes. Going through it all this morning in fact to see where I've got gaps.

I need to do this. Despite early forward purchasing I seem to have been hit with a wave of inertia just at the point I should really be making sure we’re as set up as we can be. I have stuff ferreted away all over the place and have no overall sense of where we’re at with it. I think I feel overwhelmed.

pinkground202 · 07/04/2019 12:30

Last night an ATM was stolen from the border area, there have been several such thefts in the last couple of months. Dh was just saying he assumes it's the IRA, in whichever form they are now.

Angela Merkel was in Dublin last week meeting people who live in the border areas, and Barnier is coming tomorrow. I do think the UK assumed Ireland would be thrown under the bus, certainly the ERG would be delighted to do that, but I think they underestimated the power of principle that underpins the EU. Personally I think Macron is posturing, and won't veto. Whether it's an expression of his genuine frustration with May, or just letting her know that he could if he wanted to IYKWIM

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 12:33

Edwin Hayward 🦄 🏹 🗡️
@ukdomainnames
Interesting to see that Arron Banks paid the equivalent of £5,000 for flights and accommodation for Kate Hoey in 2016 🤔

www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=10282

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 12:34

What would an ardent No Dealer’s argument be against this

Ardent no-dealers do not accept that the U.K. needs a deal with the EU, or they think that no deal will put the U.K. in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal than the WA.

It's a form of mass hysteria.

wherearemychickens · 07/04/2019 12:34

I have apparently gone a bit mad with the golden syrup - I really don't think we needed 6 tins!

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 12:36

I also think Macron probably won't veto (because he will probably get whatever he is after).

I am pretty sure that given a choice between a concession to France, Belgium and Spain, revoke and no deal, May will offer the concession in return for permission to kick the can again.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 07/04/2019 12:37

If TM and ^the government^ and whoever, finally get their shit together on Monday

There we go, fixed it for you

If the Maybot can’t compromise don’t see how that can be pinned on Corbyn

Littlespaces · 07/04/2019 12:37

@JacobReesMogg

If a long extension leaves us stuck in the EU we should be as difficult as possible. We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes.

He is getting more extreme. Nasty.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 07/04/2019 12:43

But as many have pointed out - it's so odd that we suddenly do have power in the EU.

And all those people saying they were very angry at the prospect of EU elections - angry at getting to elect those unelected bureaucrats after all?