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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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prettybird · 07/04/2019 10:59

My refugee camp garden is also on a hill and we're also the upper conversion (ie the 1st and attic floors of a Victorian stone villa) so we'll be ok Grin The Westministender refugee camp tents should be ok - but the ceilidh area at the front might be more at risk Wink

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
GroovieGazelloo · 07/04/2019 10:59

That has really cheered me up Woman19.

'Cup of kindness'
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.channel4.com/news/author-michael-morpurgo-and-historian-robert-tombs-debate-brexit" target="_blank">https://www.channel4.com/news/author-michael-morpurgo-and-historian-robert-tombs-debate-brexit

I have just been working with French colleagues on the subject of empathy and it was lovely to listen to Mr Morpurgo link this concept to the Brexit/ UK/ Europe situation.

Also, yesterday I probably watched a bit too much of the gilets jaunes and the black blocs. I can't stand the violence which seems to run in or alongside the movement.

So to have this exchange with empathy at its heart, has been been very warming for me. Thankyou again Woman19.

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:01

It is difficult to justify No Deal not being on a PV when it is clearly neck & neck with Remain - and far more popular than all the other variations of Leave

Couple of minor issues here. As a pp stated, no deal breaks an international peace treaty. Anyone who supports that really shouldn't be listened to, in the same way that a civilised country will not listen to the voices who want to reintroduce the death penalty, make homosexuality illegal again, ban abortion etc etc. Sometimes grown up decisions need to ignore what people prefer.

Also, a poll carried out a little while ago showed a ridiculous percentage thought no deal means not leaving the EU! If that is the case the polls showing support for no deal, includes a number of people who fundamentally misunderstand what is going on.

Horehound · 07/04/2019 11:01

Nardelli makes one error in this: the assumption that May is committed to EP elections. Until she legislates for it, there is no commitment.

In her last letter to the EU she stated plans were underway to carry out the EP elections and she knew she had to have them if we hadn't come to a conclusion yet .
So i dont think that's going to be an issue. It's not like she's forgotten.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:03

To date, Ireland's sweet-talking diplomacy has leveraged their soft power amazingly, to override EU economic interests
Varadkar had better think very carefully before public posturing, which could backfire badly

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:09

@BigChocFrenzy - Brexit would have been so much simpler and less dangerous - for both sides - if the EU had chucked Ireland under a bus from the beginning

So you think the UK should rip up an international peace treaty? Thankfully those conducting the negotiations in the EU have more integrity.

Throwing Ireland under the bus would have been a damn sight more dangerous for the people of Northern Ireland, as a hard border is likely to see a return to the troubles. I also think it would be quite likely the campaign would be active in Britain. You might feel a little different if there are bombings on your doorstep even if you don't care about the lives of people in NI.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:10

read the GFA

Brexit was a lunatic fringe idea then, so the issues of goods borders etc were never discussed
let alone put into legal text

Brexit breaks only the spirit of the GFA - the UK could not be taken to court

The moral argument is powerful, but it has no legal force

Particularly since guaranteeing no goods border means the UK can never have more than BRINO - full SM + CU -
or a backstop that is a goods border within the UK

No court would interfere in a country to that extent

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 11:11

{ but the ceilidh area at the front might be more at risk }

Never heard of 'aquaceilidh'? It's all the rage in some places.

Angelicinnocent · 07/04/2019 11:11

Isn't the PM due to give HoC a vote on what to do this week? I was under the impression that if the talks with Corbyn didn't resolve anything, that she had said this is what they would do.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 11:12

Couple of minor issues here. As a pp stated, no deal breaks an international peace treaty. Anyone who supports that really shouldn't be listened to, in the same way that a civilised country will not listen to the voices who want to reintroduce the death penalty, make homosexuality illegal again, ban abortion etc etc. Sometimes grown up decisions need to ignore what people prefer.

Also, a poll carried out a little while ago showed a ridiculous percentage thought no deal means not leaving the EU! If that is the case the polls showing support for no deal, includes a number of people who fundamentally misunderstand what is going on.

I completely agree with this; no deal absolutely should not be on a ballot paper.

You don't get to say you'll throw Ireland under a bus and potentially kill people due to medication shortages with your vote; that is fundamentally wrong.

If you want to leave you get to choose the deal agreed by parliament, or you don't leave.

NoWordForFluffy · 07/04/2019 11:14

Isn't the PM due to give HoC a vote on what to do this week? I was under the impression that if the talks with Corbyn didn't resolve anything, that she had said this is what they would do.

Only if there's no agreement between TM and JC to vote on I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:16

reading comprehension

I never said the EU should throw Ireland under a bus - it would be totally immoral
and also damaging to the EU politically

I was just stating the cold fact that the EU holding to its principles means it has sacrificed some eonomic prosperity
They have also accepted the political reality that this may strengthen populists

There have been minor grumbles about that in most countries, but the govts of 2 or 3 countries already raised this publicly

BestIsWest · 07/04/2019 11:19

I dreamt I’d been invited to Downing Street for a work thing, which included coffee with TM and a barbecue. It was noticeable that while the rest of us were on the cappuccinos and lattes, TM was on very strong Martini espressos. Thank god I woke up before the sausages with the cabinet.

Sarahlou63 · 07/04/2019 11:19

I fucking hate Andrea Loathsome Angry

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 11:19

OK now I am annoyed, but not at anyone here! Our local neighbourhood has a forum which is quite handy for recommending tradespeople, etc. However there's a post there trying to get people to take part in a 'yellow jacket' protest (with 'clean Brexit') on the jackets as well as other slogans. A few people have been gently arguing with that person re the wisdom of Leaving and trying to persuade them to reconsider. Here are the reasons given for wanting to Leave the EU (since some here wonder what those could be). I bullet pointed them to avoid the waffle:

  • British pound replaced by the Euro
  • European superstate
  • keep our Democracy, laws & sovereignty, British army
  • paying billions into the EU whilst our people live in poverty our veterans homeless,.
  • Our forefathers died in 2 world wars so our country can be free , live in a democracy .
  • We trade 80% free, a no deal will give us 87% free trade.
  • Once left the EU we can begin to build our country , get our British industry back, that was demolished by corrupt politicians who have had their fingers in the till along with bankers at the expense of the British tax payer
  • our Sovereign nation will cease to exist in 10-20 years time , tell that to the soldiers that died to save our nation.

ARRRGGH. Angry

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 11:22

Oh and the kicker?

17.4 million people can't be wrong.

At which point I 'came out' and told them that I was one of them and I was dreadfully wrong.

Plonkers.

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:25

@BigChocFrenzy - the words you used in your post were: Brexit would have been so much simpler and less dangerous - for both sides - if the EU had chucked Ireland under a bus from the beginning

The logical conclusion one would come to, using normal levels of reading comprehension, is that you believe this to be an appropriate course of action.

Clarifying what you believe to be acceptable will ensure your position is clear.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:25

Leavers have massively hardened their position since the ref - when almost everyone believed in an easy deal
This presents us with a dreadful dilemma in democracy

Once we say that voters shouldn't be allowed to have an option - an option that is valid in international law -
we are on the slippery slope that voters are too stupid to decide important issues like Brexit

Then we can say they shouldn't be allowed to vote for a party that wants to cut benefits

  • which is a very cruel policy that actually kills hundreds and tortures thousands, but is legal

An option that says "leaving the EU without a deal" is much clearer than some of the poll questions

Anyway, the HoC can vote on a PV,
but the independent Electoral Commission can refuse to accept the options, if they believe it is vote-fixing

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 11:27

{However there's a post there trying to get people to take part in a 'yellow jacket' protest}

Unless they are protesting the proposed (but now rescinded) fuel price hikes in France, they should find another way of showing their protest. High vis jackets have already been taken.

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:31

@BigChocFrenzy - Brexit breaks only the spirit of the GFA - the UK could not be taken to court

No deal Brexit breaks the letter as well as the spirit of the GFA. You are correct that it will not be taken to court. However, from a purely pragmatic position, it would have a massive impact on levels of trust. If the UK is willing to rip up an international treaty when it no longer suits, other countries will look for significantly higher levels of assurances, guarantees and concessions before making deals as it will be obvious that the UK cannot be trusted to keep its word.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:32

I have defended the backstop in the WA throughout, that it cannot be changed, so my position on the border is clear

What I am saying is that the EU has put Ireland and the GFA before the economic intersts of the other 450 million,
which should be acknowledged

  • and is what the Brexiters and UK govt never expected.

However, insisting on the backstop does not mean that the other 26 EU countries must continue to let the UK dither in extension after extension as Varadkar seems to demand

If 1 or more E27 countries vetoes an extension, I wouldn't blame them at all

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 11:34

Of course No Deal would be massively harmful for the UK as well as Ireland
The lack of trust, the Irish lobby in the US Congress blocking trade deals

.... and the EU insisting on the UK signing up to the backstop before negotiations could begin

That is a different point to saying the GFA makes No Deal illegal
It doesn't

ElenadeClermont · 07/04/2019 11:35

Spent weekend in Brexit Central and managed to totally avoid a bust up. Result!
I am knackered with the stress of it all.

doIreallyneedto · 07/04/2019 11:40

@BigChocFrenzy - I have defended the backstop in the WA throughout, that it cannot be changed, so my position on the border is clear

I generally don't notice posters' names unless I am responding to them specifically (and promptly forget the name). Also, the speed of this thread makes it impossible to keep up with every post.

I was responding to what you wrote in a specific post and interpreting it in isolation. I apologise for that misinterpretation of your position.

Ellie56 · 07/04/2019 11:42

Throwing Ireland under the bus would have been a damn sight more dangerous for the people of Northern Ireland, as a hard border is likely to see a return to the troubles. I also think it would be quite likely the campaign would be active in Britain.

The Troubles certainly spilled over onto the mainland last time. Bombs at Harrods, Hyde Park/Regents Park, MP Airey Neave blown up in his car at the HOC, bombs in Birmingham, Warrington, Brighton, Guildford - and they are just the ones I remember.

And of course it was far worse in Northern Ireland. Thousands killed and injured. The one I always remember is Patrick Rooney, the little boy who died in his own bedroom.

It's chilling to even think we could be on the road back to those times.