Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
prettybird · 07/04/2019 09:49

Ditto with Nick Boles Common Market 2.0 one, which was deemed to be too dangerous as it would make future Scottish independence "too easy" Angry

LonelyTiredandLow · 07/04/2019 09:51

The irony of these being indicative whilst being whipped...and the Tories wonder why no one likes the deal or trusts them!

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 09:51

Thanks for explaining that, pretty. Well I will say this is (so far!) the nicest nest of vipers I've ever encountered! Grin

I have some younger American friends and they are bemused by Brexit (and made some hilarious comments re Bercow, because they've no idea about the robes he wears, asked 'why is he wearing that blanket? And does he never brush his hair?' Grin ). They think May's deal is rubbish and the whole idea of leaving the EU was a terrible one. They haven't any faith in Trump either so we say we'll meet in the Atlantic when it all goes to hell. Grin

woman19 · 07/04/2019 09:51

our voices counted for nothing
10 million missing votes?

Why 10 million?
Oxford University’s Migration Observatory estimates that there are 9.4 million foreign-born people living in the UK. Approximately 1 million of these are Commonwealth citizens, and 400,000 are Irish-born. The rest – around 8 million – cannot vote in general elections and could not vote in the 2016 EU referendum

There are around 5 million British people living abroad. 60%, or 3 million of these have been abroad for more than 15 years and so cannot vote

Altogether, this amounts to more than 11 million people. We round down to 10 million to take account of factors like those not yet of voting age

www.letusvote.org.uk/faqs/#why

labourlist.org/2019/04/migrants-in-the-uk-deserve-rights-let-us-vote/

Enfranchise them (plus 16 plus your olds Smile), and we can forget this whole sordid little episode. Smile

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 09:51

singingbab that sounds like one hell of a dream! Also very funny Grin for us...for you not so much Hmm

TheElementsSong · 07/04/2019 09:52

This wah-wah-wah-oppression-by-a-Remainer-parliament thing: I wonder how many Leavers who say that (not getting specifically at how - have seen this many times) have perhaps also said that thing about 80% of the electorate voted for Brexit-supporting parties in 2017? I would hope that's a completely non-overlapping Venn diagram, yes? We have 559 Conservative and Labour MPs, both parties being help up as supporters of Brexit according to the "80%" thing, so by that definition parliament is extremely Leave-leaning.

Seems to me that only way to square that circle is to drink deeeeeeeep of the betrayal-by-lying-traitorour-MPs-who-hate-the-People narrative.

67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 09:54

crunchy we have mooted the idea of a remainer country/district/island previously.

I'm in.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 09:58

I might move to Glasgow if it declares itself an independent republic in the spirit of John Maclean. Everythingisginandroses (from the last thread)

There is a campaign at the moment to call a new "square" (actually a large triangle Confused)/public space that has been created in from of Langside Halls (in Shawlands) "John Maclean Square" Grin

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 09:59

crunchy we have mooted the idea of a remainer country/district/island previously.

Hahaha well maybe not an island as we'll be drowned as the oceans rise with global warming! Shock

bellinisurge · 07/04/2019 10:01

Problem is with the island, that I would have to come in as a refugee. Hardest of hard Brexit support round where I live. Which raises some interesting questions...

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 10:02

crunchy sorry about your health problems and troublesome med access Flowers. We've had simular problems with DP's meds and it's a eye opener how often the system fails.

PostNotInHaste · 07/04/2019 10:06

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-no-deal-nhs-epilepsy-bipolar-medicine-stockpiling-a8855131.html?fbclid=IwAR0JJyK530zUaYI4KzCVhN4t63WMpKS7hPAPUmlMMb-v9_ynyZ0d-Vg1qog

‘On Wednesday night, BBC Newsnight revealed some life-saving drugs have proved impossible to stockpile – including those used to treat epilepsy – and that the doctors who had been given this information had been told to keep quiet.

Back in January the health secretary Matthew Hancock told parliament that the requisite medicine supplies had been stockpiled in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Last night we learned that was not the case. Currently, a no deal would mean potential shortages of three important drugs for epilepsy, bipolar disorder and neuropathic pain. This would be life threatening for patients.

Dr David Nicholl, consultant neurologist at University Hospital Birmingham received the confidential documents in March and has since refused to keep quiet. Thanks to him, patients with epilepsy including myself now understand the consequences of a no-deal Brexit. (I was diagnosed with epilepsy at the age of seven. My seizures are fairly controlled thanks to my medicine but they come in the night or times of great stress).

The documents, sent round to senior clinicians such as Dr Nicholl, stated that “a patient’s treatment regime would require change” in the result of no deal and so “clinical outcomes would be compromised as a result”.

A disruption in a patient’s change of medication, according to Dr Nicholl, could mean “the end of driving, the end of work – and also potentially a risk of death or injury from seizures”.

Last Friday, I went to my local surgery in London and have asked for a repeat prescription for my epileptic medicine. They told me it would be ready at my pharmacy for Monday or Tuesday.

I went to pick it up from the pharmacy on Wednesday and for the first time my pharmacist told me that he hadn’t received the medicine. These included my anticonvulsants for epilepsy and insulin for diabetes. This is exceedingly worrying for someone like myself, as well as other patients in the UK who have chronic illnesses.

Cabinet ministers and MPs who support a no-deal Brexit need to realise this – the NHS simply isn’t prepared for a crash out.

The UK is due to leave the EU in eight days’ time. The prime minister Theresa May would like to seek a short extension but some EU leaders like French president Emmanuel Macron may not be in favour.

Patients who suffer from medical conditions are living in worrying times. I want to thank Dr Nicholl for blowing the whistle on this but it’s hard not to think that doctors in the NHS should have been given more freedom to talk about the potential catastrophe of a no deal a lot earlier.

The best thing for people like myself and other British citizens who suffer from epilepsy, bipolar and neurological conditions, is for a people’s vote.‘

Apologies if already posted, this made me angry and sad in equal measure. Was talk8mg ti someone whose partner hadn’t been able to get their usual epilepsy medicine either last week. I don’t think I agree that a PV will solve this as there is a risk of too many people not believing what they read any more and some basically not giving a shit anyway.

Still find it incomprehensible that in the U.K. in 2019 we are even discussing shortage of medicine, let alone people actually not being able to get it. I will never ever forget that we’ve had to worry about DH’s insulin. I literally cannot get my head around this.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 10:07

Remainers have to move on from blaming & insulting Leave voters, which is seriously contributing to their switch towards No Deal

  • that's totally different to blaming the incompetence of Brexit politicians, which is something both sides should unite on

PV - in the light of this, I see major problems

  • It is difficult to justify No Deal not being on a PV when it is clearly neck & neck with Remain - and far more popular than all the other variations of Leave -

other than it would be disastrous and we don't want it
Choosing a less popular version of Leave is vote-fixing and might not be allowed by the Electoral Commission

  • Would a PV would deliver a Remain vote against any kind of Leave ? ... unless it is gerrymandered by excluding the Leave that most Leavers now want

No Deal actually beats Remain in some polls and we have no way to stop the same dirty psyops shenangigans affecting the result

  • Unlikely that a Remain vote would be by more than a narrow margin, so this issue would continue fester in British politics
  • especially if No Deal is not on the ballot paper
It would block progress on other vital issues - and maybe leading to the UK being even more of a wrecker in the EU than it already is.
prettybird · 07/04/2019 10:12

Crunchy - due to glacial rebound and all the mountains in Scotland, we're safer from rising sea levels than England Wink

bellinisurge · 07/04/2019 10:13

I have moved on from blaming Leavers. Doesn't mean I don't still blame them. And if they are so flouncy and petulant as to support No Deal because people are mean to them then they are more childish than I thought .

PostNotInHaste · 07/04/2019 10:24

I don’t blame Leavers. I blame some policticians and the media for us getting where we are today. It didn’t have to be like this and we have all been let down badly.

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 10:24

+ It is difficult to justify No Deal not being on a PV*
when it is clearly neck & neck with Remain - and far more popular than all the other variations of Leave -*

I think it is difficult to justify it actually given that it involves breaching an international treaty. At the very least there should be serious discussions about conducting a simultaneous border poll: "if the U.K. decides to leave the EU with no deal, do you want to - remain in the U.K. or - unite with Ireland."

GroovieGazelloo · 07/04/2019 10:25

"There are around 5 million British people living abroad. 60%, or 3 million of these have been abroad for more than 15 years and so cannot vote."

Thankyou so much for that Woman19.
Though I wanted to be able to vote in the referendum and couldn't, it's lovely to at least see that my missed voice has been counted.

And thankyou Woman19 for posting that. I'm glad to know that my feelings and position matters in some way.

I would, of course, have been a remainer. I say " of course" , because the effects that Brexit is probably going to have on British people who've made their homes in Europe is looking to be nothing short of cruel. I'm thinking particularly about those who need health care and a reasonable pension to live on. Since the referendum, I've been looking towards remainers who had a vote, to act on behalf of us voteless ones.

I do appreciate those who understand. And I thank you for all the efforts, big and small, you've been making to keep our hopes alive. Smile

Dontlickthetrolley · 07/04/2019 10:31

Varadkar - any country that vetoed a Brexit delay would cause hardship for Ireland and other countries and would not be forgiven

news.sky.com/story/leo-varadkar-any-country-that-vetoed-brexit-delay-would-not-be-forgiven-11686447?fbclid=IwAR0EnR4hQHy5uImd_QKJY0wPxYg8kx-iRaWHaUAMXIPt_2SiK_rqwKM6IuI

woman19 · 07/04/2019 10:32

Smile You're welcome Groovie and welcome crunchy I liked what the lovely Morpurgo said here.
'Cup of kindness'
www.channel4.com/news/author-michael-morpurgo-and-historian-robert-tombs-debate-brexit

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 10:37

Varadkar's nerves must be frayed by this point with the anxiety of it all.

pretty I do live on a Big Hill so think I'd be safe here but would need a boat to get to anywhere! Grin

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 10:42

I blame some leavers. Can't help it and sometimes it borders on the irrational. Sat up there in the I'm Alright Jack Ivory Tower.

Rage inducing.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 10:51

Misti No Deal involves breaking the spirit of the GFA, but not the actual law.
The UK could not be taken to court over it
Niether would Ireland if / when they put up checks for goods from NI

The reason that the EU & Ireland are so firm on keeping the backstop in the WA is precisely because this would be binding in international law, that neither side may add goods checks

CordeliaEarhart · 07/04/2019 10:56

I don't blame leave voters who believed the hype from the campaigns and politicians. Frankly, we should be able to assume that MPs and MEPs do not directly lie to the electorate. We should be able to trust that political campaigns obey the law. The level of their dishonesty shocked me, so I find it difficult to blame those who were duped.

As for the "what about the £9million leaflet?" Well, the government was legally required to set out its position in advance of the referendum. Government spending in order to obey the law cannot reasonably be used to counter illegal spending by leave campaigns. It's like claiming that it's okay to add illegal modifications on to your car because I spent the same amount getting parts upgraded so my car passes its mot. It is utterly absurd.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 10:57

Considering that the EU have geared their entire negotiating strategy to ireland's needs, Varadkar's likely to piss off many in the EU

Brexit would have been so much simpler and less dangerous - for both sides - if the EU had chucked Ireland under a bus from the beginning
The Uk assumed that they would - one of many mistakes
But they didn't

However, the EU can't continue to remain in a risky Brexit limbo for ever, just to save Varadkar from having to make decisions he doesn't want

There will be a limit to this - and Varadkar has probably just shortened this