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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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prettybird · 07/04/2019 09:05

Look what my gardening friend gave me for my birthday Grin (he'd already given me some black cherry tomato seeds as an early present) for my Brexit preparation Wink

I really must start sowing! Blush (Memo to self: really must go and buy some compost so that I can start sowing Blush )

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 09:06

crunchy
I'd advise contacting your mp about medication shortages (I can't get one of mine atm) but....
I wrote to mine about my mums and sisters drugs and just got a cut and paste reply (he is an erg headbamger though)

taeglas · 07/04/2019 09:06

John Bercow on Dutch tv on Thursday.
evajinek.kro-ncrv.nl/fragmenten/mr-speaker-john-bercow-kwam-overvliegen-om-ons-bij-te-praten-over-brexit
Mr. Speaker of the British House of Commons, John Bercow, told Jinek about his sudden celebrity status, his job and talked to us about Brexit.

woman19 · 07/04/2019 09:07

We are 5 days away from no Deal and if all that can save us is voting for a WA with lock by the other 3 nations, then I would aks MPs to do this.

She won't let MPs vote on it. She won't let the electorate vote on it.
No one is being given any opportunity to save anyone.

Why would that be?

67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 09:07

pretty dh sowed a few veggies yesterday

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:14

woman May wants a deal all right, but she is just one of those unimaginative authoritarian types, who think if they just keep shouting loudly then others will give in.

She doesn't understand how to negotiate from weakness, only to dominate - which fails totally for the weaker party

If May wanted No Deal, she just had to do nothing, to let it happen on 29 March

She would have halted the internal party civil war, caused by the 90% Brexiter membership and the over 70% Brexiter Tory voters turning on her and making dire threats about the local elections etc

If she eventually delivers a deal, it is highly likely the Tory party will go into all-out internal civil war,
with MPs and voters splitting off to join UKIP or the Brexit party.

FPTP could destroy the split right as a political force for a decade or more,
due to the sheer degree of hate the No Dealers feel towards those wanting a softer Brexit

Motheroffourdragons · 07/04/2019 09:16

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

CrunchyCarrot · 07/04/2019 09:19

I am still so angry with those who "blithely" voted leave, like you did, with no real understanding of what you were voting for and the damage they have inflicted, the future - or lack of - my children may now face, but that's my issue, not yours.

I get it, I really do, and for what it's worth I feel terrible about it. There's a huge amount of anger around from all quarters and that is going to cause a lot of strife no matter what the outcome is. This IS a divided country and the situation in Parliament reflects that. I had hoped MPs would have more insight and wisdom and the ability to sort the mess out (particularly the PM!) but apparently not, and that is deeply disturbing. We're all being carried along on this tide now and I don't know whether we're going to be swept into a whirlpool and sucked under or tossed to the side and wrecked on rocks.

prettybird · 07/04/2019 09:21

I did think that someone had already "halved" the figures to get the "majority" and then someone had picked up the figure and halved it again Confused

It doesn't help the argument to have false figures - but there again, whenever did facts help the argument anyway? HmmSad

TisILeClerc - howabout is one of the reasonable Leavers who actually engages constructively and positively in the debate. It doesn't help the Remain "cause" to be so aggressive towards her Hmm although I am confident she can stand up for herself Grin

CrunchyCarrot - we tend to use either Flowers for virtual support or say "UnMumsnetty Hugs or {{{{}}}}" Wink (we don't like to admit MN does hugs as we are of course a Nest of Vipers Grin) But Flowers and {{{}}} to you for what you're going through and congratulations for having the courage to say you were wrong. (BTW: I tend to say "Brexiter" rather than "Brexiteer" as the latter sounds too buccaneeringly glamorous Wink)

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2019 09:22

Alberto Nardelli@albertonardelli
A short thread on article 50 extension & this week’s EUCO. This is where I understand things to be at.

At the last Council, PM May was asked to indicate a way forward by April 13. She has - so far - done this only in part.

Committing to organising European Parliamentary elections is an important step forward.

But the prime minister hasn’t - yet - outlined a plan or clear purpose for an extension. The outcome of talks with Jeremy Corbyn will determine the shape of any plan, indeed if there is one

The chances of a no deal on 13/04 are extremely low. No senior EU27 govt official I have spoken to in recent days thinks it conceivable that anyone would veto an extension and push Britain over the cliff.

Debate among EU27 is about short vs long extension. Views on this differ.

A short extension would provide the UK with a decision point: agree the withdrawal agreement or choose no deal or election/referendum (and a long extension). The onus would be on the UK to decide. Critics argue that this risks no deal or opens the door to multiple extensions.

A long extension keeps all options on the table, and Tusk’s flexible extension idea has been conceived as a compromise between the various positions while avoiding multiple extensions & lowering risk of no-deal. But critics say it removes the pressure of having to decide.

Those against long extension without a clear purpose say it would likely see the UK take part in EU elections (that some don’t want), and British politics would just become even more wild – though EU27 will make clear WA cannot be reopened, the UK would soon push for changes.

The next few days are important:

- Talks with Corbyn will determine whether May goes to Brussels with a plan.

- Extension decision is ultimately for leaders, and in seeking a consensus, they have often been tougher than EU officials.

- some senior EU officials believe May hasn’t helped her cause by asking for a short extension without first ensuring she has a pathway to a deal: if talks with Corbyn fail, both the prime minister and the EU27 will be in a tricky spot.

Nardelli makes one error in this: the assumption that May is committed to EP elections. Until she legislates for it, there is no commitment.

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
At the start of the 2017 general election campaign the age at which, on average, voters moved from being Labour to Tory was 34. By the end of that campaign it was 47. Now it is 51. If that doesn’t put the fear of god in Conservatives nothing will
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-ability-to-rule-in-peril-as-under-50s-shun-party-wxtgn6c25
Conservatives’ ability to rule in peril as under-50s shun party

The Tories “will lose their ability to govern” unless they do more to attract young voters, according to a hard-hitting report that reveals the party is haemorrhaging support from the under-50s.

OP posts:
LonelyTiredandLow · 07/04/2019 09:22

@67chevy I feel similarly. I actually think it has gone in waves. Initially I felt shocked and quite sorry for leave voters who were clearly celebrating something that was impossible and in my eyes the break of the GFA - which they kept saying I was overthinking.

Then when it became completely apparent Farage/Boris/Banks/Cummings/Fox etc had no plan at all other than willy wave I got cross but crosser with the people still happily blindly waving union jacks with them and their fingers in their ears.

As most of you know i've had daily conversations with a leaver who has shown signs of regret on some days and completely forgotten them the next. She's said some utterly disgusting things about human beings to me in defence of her logic. She banged on about the war on an almost daily basis and had some odd idea she had saved all of our children's futures. This despite all of the governments own figures showing her vote has cemented their futures. The whole world can see we are on a hiding to nothing. THE WORLD! I now can't help but feel that leavers have some kind of empathy gap and are in some way completely disconnected to reality. The Ponzi scheme article was spot on in my opinion and no, I don't feel sorry for any who haven't realised they have screwed up our country.

If you are wrong you gain humility and admit it or suffer the consequences. Why do these people find that simple concept so hard? It's like someone treading dog muck all through the house but refusing to admit it is on their shoes or take them off.

I also realise i'm part of the problem - the idea of dating a leaver for example makes me feel physically repulsed, which is deep rooted and a feeling i've not had before. Perhaps my friend has layered her own bigotry onto other leavers' where it isn't deserved - she was a special case who hates welfare and was keen to see it abolished and that was partly why she voted leave.

Also the 9mil on leaflets to every house really grates - it clearly spelled out EXACTLY these issues we are having and the likely implications. Saying it was unfair to do this whilst also refusing to admit these are the implications and the issues (project fear) is why we have chased our tail for 3 years.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 07/04/2019 09:27

Morning everyone.

If you didn’t wake up this morning having had a dream that, due to events that never became quite clear, you had ended up closely related by marriage to Andrea Leadsom, then I’d suggest your day may have got off to a better start than mine...

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:31

The 9 million quid was legal and in the open;
the dirty money was illegal - and they tried to hide who the donors were

Governments have often sent out leaflets to push their viewpoint on important issues, without funding the opposing side to leaflet the opposite

TatianaLarina · 07/04/2019 09:33

Tories and Labour will never reach a deal, don’t kid yourselves.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/04/2019 09:34

I dreamt that I'd made friends with a cod that came with me for walks and pretended to be a shark to scare passers-by Confused
I'm quite sad I don't have a pet cod now.

TatianaLarina · 07/04/2019 09:35

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/07/how-cross-party-brexit-talks-left-both-sides-frustrated-labour-tories

The government’s team was effectively stating that their deal contained measures that they had publicly said they were against. Labour’s team asked how Britain’s future EU deal could be altered and shaped. The queries were met with detailed and calm explanation about the EU’s position and what could and had been attempted. By lunch, Labour had detected a reluctance to actually make any significant changes.

“They were essentially setting out why the deal was very good and how we hadn’t quite understood how good it was,” said one source familiar with the talks. “How, if you look carefully, it is a customs union and it is alignment with the single market. It was a really good, interesting technical exposition of the deal – but it was pretty clear they were selling their deal rather than explaining how they would change it.”

After lunch, national security and workers’ rights were examined –with Labour asking for worker protections to be beefed up. Discussion kept coming back to one point, made repeatedly by Starmer – how on earth could Labour have any confidence that a new Tory leader, perhaps Boris Johnson or former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab, would honour anything agreed at these talks? It is also the latest argument being deployed by campaigners for a second referendum to dissuade Labour MPs from backing any deal.

Then the Downing Street team made what they thought was a big offer. They said that to make Labour feel like it had some control over the future trade deal secured with the EU, they would accept a plan drawn up by Labour backbenchers Lisa Nandy and Gareth Snell, handing parliament some control over the parameters of future EU talks. They even offered to enshrine the idea in law.

The Tory team were baffled that Labour did not see this as a big win. For Labour’s team, the offer amounted to very little – it still required Labour to vote through a deal with no guarantees about the future, while handing parliament a say did not guarantee that Labour’s demands would be heeded

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:37

red I agree totally that unless May has actually completed the Order in Council for EP elections before she presents her case on 10 April at the EU summit for an extension,

then the EU leaders will not believe she is serious about having any plan other than more dithering
Or they'll think that if she is too weak to dare do even this OiC, then there is little point giving a long extension

1tisILeClerc · 07/04/2019 09:37

I am afraid that after 3 years of 'leaver' crap, arguing the toss over how many did or didn't vote is academic. Until they start to come up with some constructive plans to get the UK out of this mess they are not worth listening to.
How many of them have been lobbying their MPs to get some of the issues resolved? So little of what the leave campaign is actually EU based, why hasn't the government been addressing the actual causes or even making an effort to make plans to resolve them?
Where are the protests demanding better schools, improvements in public transport, social housing etc? Sitting on their hands while gloating that 'they won' but expecting someone else to do the thinking and work is absolutely not on.
Why have they waited 3 years to make improvements? We have largely established that the EU is not holding them back as the UK is sovereign, payments to the EU are minimal and EU workers are leaving. What are the Leavers waiting for?

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:41

I agree that the chances for a May-Corbyn deal are not as high as even 50:50

However, if she goes to the EU summit on Wednesday with nothing at all, then she'll probably get nothing

Her "plan" may just be to avoid the talks with Corbyn breaking down before then, so she can claim to the EU that those talks could lead to something

Mistigri · 07/04/2019 09:42

Mistigri my understanding of the "lock" is that it would involve giving powers to the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales, and NI and enshrining these in law. These governments would need to approve any changes to the deal, making changes by a brexiteer government practically impossible.

If that is true it might be effective, but it doesn't look credible to me. There isn't a functioning NI assembly ...

It sounds as if the offer was for a vote in Westminster, which hopefully even Corbyn and his advisers are not stupid enough/ cynical enough to take at face value.

The only way to effectively lock any deal is to put it in the WA. Which isn't going to be reopened.

GroovieGazelloo · 07/04/2019 09:44

"the maths don't really matter now".
Lonelyplanet and howaboaut, I agree about sharing different sides of the argument. And, there are more than two.

From my side, and for many other British Europeans, living outside the country - who are deeply affected by the results but weren't allowed a say at all in Brexit, though we exist, our voices counted for nothing.

For us the Brexit maths have always mattered.
How many of us are there ?
I believe that matters.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:46

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*

.... the reason the Ken Clarke / customs union amendment didn’t go thru on Monday was the unofficial whipping against it by Tory whips.

If that wasn’t there, it probably would.

67chevvyimpala · 07/04/2019 09:47

kitten and babooshka 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well, that's cheered me up!

lonely thank you for sharing your feelings. I somtimes think I'm the only one who feels this way. I know just what you mean wrt the idea of dating a leaver...it makes me a bit sick in my mouth 🤢

crunchy thank you. You get it. How can we as a country, move past all this?
I am aware I'm part of the problem, which complicates things further.
I feel I should be the bigger person but I just can't.
Where has being the adult in the room got remainers???
All the leaver nastiness, the threats the bombs, the intimidation (only of female MPs obv) it's all leading somewhere that I am very scared of.

Less workers rights, less womens rights, less health and safety, no NHS...America on Thames.
Sigh.

HazardGhost · 07/04/2019 09:49

@curragh thank you so much. Never before have i given med production/distribution so much thought 😯. Here's to being transfixed CakeBrew

BigChocFrenzy · 07/04/2019 09:49

Misti Adding the lock as a clause to the WA is the one sort of change I think the EU might accept

because it only affects UK politics
doesn't change anything the EU cares about - and in fact they'd welcome blocking what a future PM Boris could do -
and would be very quick for the legal team to draft