Westminstenders: For Whom the Bell Tolls

[RedToothBrush]

Although another round of Indicative Votes is scheduled, arguably the chance for a soft Brexit has gone for two reasons.

Parliament was unable to show a majority because those on the opposition benches were too busy saying 'I want this but only on these terms' or still being too unwilling to compromise. Thus the opportunity and point for a third round starts to look weak.

The second is that Tory MPs were resolute in an opposition to a soft Brexit.

Unless May decides to be the next Robert Peel and go for a soft Brexit on the back of opposition vote its not going to happen.

This leaves May's deal as it stands or no deal.

May seems to have actually lost a few supporters of her deal since Friday, and given the performance of the opposition tonight and the prospect of round 3 of indicative votes they will still be unwilling to go for May's deal.

Which leaves no deal.

There is talk of a managed no deal. There is no such thing. The EU plan for that is essentially to push us into the deal in order to get a trading relationship.

And that will push us closer to the us. Which is what many torys want. And what polling seems to suggest they will have surprising support for.

Sorry folks but it don't look great tonight.

The opposition benches may look back on tonight and think they screwed it. I hope I'm wrong. But I fear tonight might have sealed our fate.

Tomorrow may has a 5hr cabinet. And a secret document dmfor the cabinet to study first.

It's going to get bumpy from here on in...

I doubt it will be a GE. It will be mays deal, no deal or revoke

Thanks red

Dh and I watching the news incredulously this morning. If they'd only done something like this early doors we'd likely have a consensus. Maybe we'd never have needed to extend at all and we'd already be out which we don't really want but it's the frustration about there not being immediate consensus over things that's frustrating. Argh.

I want to know what the DUP want, too.

And why did the Libdems and independents not vote for a soft Brexit option? I know the Libdems want to remain but they are playing a very dangerous game not going for a compromise option.

I imagine that if the vote were secret we'd have more votes for revoke but MPs probably have an eye on Dominic Grieve (and at the other extreme, Jo Cox).

My MP voted No to all the options. Again. Despite representing a Remain constituency, he's a raging Tory and does not listen to constituents.

Morning all.
What a clusterfuck. I'm so angry at my no to everything MP, and the rest of the wankers. They should t be allowed to abstain in something like this. We're they whipped it was it a free vote? TMs body language on the bench looked quite defeated. Maybe she'll give up now but I doubt it.
I'm off to Tesco to stock up the stock pile.
Fuck.

It won't be Revoke. There's no support for it.It mystifies me why not.

MPs could make the simple point to their constituents that the time isn't right. If it was the right thing to do now there would be signs of the benefits. There would be signs of investment and there would be transparent and logical indicators which would attract greater consensus.

Also what international and national message does it send that:

1. The Tory benches were mostly empty during the debate last night.
2. The 6m petition is debated in a side chamber (like any other less time critical petition) and not in the main house.

Oh, well this is all very depressing this morning.

The Conserving don't have the money to campaign for a general election, which would make things interesting if May goes off piste and calls one. Not sure about Labour's finances but I suspect they aren't all that flush either right now.

It’s looking like there just won’t be a majority for anything, anywhere-in government, in parliament and in the populous. It’s like a third want Brexit, a third don’t and a third don’t care!

I can’t see how we will avoid a general election now. It will cost a fortune and just delays the Brexit decision, but the government is in a mess.

Why oh why did Labour abstain on Joanna Cherry's motion? Is it part of Corbyn's attempt to force a GE? Very little about what happened yesterday makes any sense to me

and Yy lonelyplanetmum why were the Tory benches so empty?

I'm really hacked off with the Lib Dems foe voting against a soft Brexit. If the SNP can do it they should have done it too.

I don't actually understand the logic of [Theresa May] calling a General Election, even if she feels it's her only option. What does it solve, from TM's point of view?

Personally I think it's a threat to get her WA thru. "Do as I say or there will be consequences!"

It also gives her a way out without flouncing.

But the party can't afford it.

What a mess.

Maybe the cabinet decision will be she can revoke then resign. Let's hope so.

I'm really hacked off with the Lib Dems foe voting against a soft Brexit. If the SNP can do it they should have done it too

Yes I agree. I've tweeted Layla Moran this morning (politely) to say they need to compromise .

There are too many choices and they're getting overwhelmed. It needs to be pared right back.

Get rid of the No Deal option. Parliament, Industry and The People are agreed it would be a disaster for ourselves and cause too much damage. I know some of them like it very much, but it's not an option we want to consider and we don't give in to pestering, do we?

General Election and People's Vote, much as I'd like them, are wasting time. Parliament needs to make the decision they demanded to make. So those options can be crossed out.

Which leaves Nick Boles' and Ken Clarke's.
The most popular of the "compromises" seems to be Ken Clarke's. We're also fairly sure that the EU will accept it and we've been listening and paying attention to what they say this time.
Therefore we give them the choice of Ken Clarke's option or Revoke.

No abstentions, no whips, no Ayes or Noes - one choice or the other and choose quickly, please.

And then lots of praise for being good boys and girls and making a grown up decision.

PMK

Tried to post pictures of my place cat king (and queen)...

Been catching up on the thread. Every time I click through to the next page the last page ticks up one too! So getting my P(retty) M(uch) K(aput) in now...
Thanks for the thread Red

Only just got to the Tim Farron tweet.

It made me wonder if we should have focused emails on them and TIGs yesterday to stop abstentions? They are HoC version of the 3 mil who tipped the ref over the edge in this case. I wonder if they just assume we will be going for a long extension because HoC voted against No Deal.

You have to wonder if some are being wilfully naive if so.

I saw some of the speeches last night and in certain cases I can understand why they (as in those who spoke, not their parties in total) voted the way they did. Soubry explained herself very well as common market 2.0 not solving the Irish border issue. Norman Lamb spoke of being a remainer representing a leave constituency, and Ruth Fox did a piece on BBC parliament about the difficult position of those mps. Seems a shame that those who represent remain constituencies but back leave don't seem to have the same qualms.

And wtf are they playing at re the Cherry amendment ffs. All of them. As a house we don't want no deal but we aren't going to give ourselves the option to stop that.

I agree with tanith too re too many options. We've still got Wednesday though, so fingers crossed it's whittled down enough then to have an outcome.

PMK

Conservatives don't have enough money for an election? Referendum would be too divisive?

Spot the historical reference point anyone?

They are of course lying to you. Again.

Anytime anybody ever hears someone say this - please please take the time to explain that, no matter what form leave takes, it is a process which will take years if not decades. And it will take up time in the news and time in parliament for all those years. The only way to 'get it over with' is to remain. It goes away instantly and we never have to hear about it again.

Unfortunately this is absolutely not the case.
The minute we Revoke we hit the reset button to start debating

1. How to plan for No Deal effectively given Art 50 doesn't work or
2. How to negotiate a WA which works with the EU before triggering Art 50 as a done deal transition or
3. How to do "Remain and Reform" or
4. How to shape the EU going forward and reassert ourselves having been absent from the discussion for 3 years.

None of these options look attractive from the EU's pov which is probably the only incentive for them to grant us a long extension. The long extension is starting to look like just prolonging the agony all round. It also takes away all the impetus for Tories to pass WA as they could replace TM and change tack.

If Remain is better than for Remainers and No Deal / Revoke and Regroup is better for Leavers than WA plus any of the "compromise" options then the choice is No Deal or Revoke not a middle which suits no-one.

Place Mat King by also pasting this onto the new thread.

IMPORTANT

At the moment, the only thing anyone is interested in is sorting Brexit because there seems to be no cash available to spend on schools, the police or the NHS anyway, so promises on those are just ballocks.

I labelled this important as it seems to be something that most people miss unless you are self employed or run a business because of the way MSM report austerity cuts.

At the same time the Government is slashing public sector spending they are reducing corporation tax from 20% of business turnover to 17% of business turnover.
*
There IS MONEY but the Tories are CHOOSING to give it back to business because THAT's WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.*

In honour of the thread title, one of my favourite tunes.

What will be so different if we crash out, is that for 40 years we have had a tiny minority of ideologues who apart from being pains in the butt to the Tory party hardly registered in the country at large. If we crash out, there will not only be an unhappy majority in Parliament, but there will be a very unhappy huge majority in the country if the economy suffers as badly as has been predicted.

It is really a very odd situation,