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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Lisette1940 · 01/04/2019 22:42

If there is a majority of MPs in favour Red they can table legislation and override May. Hung parliament so executive not fully in control.

TemporaryPermanent · 01/04/2019 22:42

sunshine1239 what do you mean by 'full leave' - no deal? no I don't think that crashing out of trade and legal arrangements with our main trading partners is better than a soft brexit. And if course soft brexits are shit, I voted remain, they are all problematic, i wanted to stay in!

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 22:43

Nick Boles MP @nickboles
I am resigning the Conservative whip with immediate effect. The Conservative Party has shown itself to be incapable of compromise so I will sit as an Independent Progressive Conservative.

Not a Tigger.

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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 22:44

It'll be ok for the rich Sunshine.

prettybird · 01/04/2019 22:44

Didn't we here on the Westministender threads (many many many many many threads ago Grin) suggest that one way forward was the rarely used mechanism of a "coupon election"? Wink

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 22:45

If there is a majority of MPs in favour Red they can table legislation and override May. Hung parliament so executive not fully in control.

If only it were that simple.

It's not strictly true.

May remains PM so retains some power.

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Violetparis · 01/04/2019 22:45

So it sounds like Nick Boles isn't joining the Tiggers.

SusanWalker · 01/04/2019 22:45

I've done my time tobee. I once worked in a posh pub full of rich people, most of whom were wankers. Interestingly we sometimes had titled people in and they were much nicer and their kids much better behaved.

The best night of my time there was telling the wankiest wanker that none of his credit cards would go through.

Violetparis · 01/04/2019 22:46

Anna Soubry and Peter Kyle giggling away on Sky News have infuriated me.

TatianaLarina · 01/04/2019 22:46

To be fair a soft brexit is pointless, we’d be worse off. Surely even remainers must see that. I voted leave and haven’t changed my vote but would prefer remain to one of these softer brexits as even I can see they’re basically a poorer version of remain and we’d be worse off. None of the options debated were brexit really

Of course they can see that that’s why they favour Remain. Soft Brexit is totally pointless, it ties us to EU regulations and contributions with no input, vote or veto.

It is favoured simply because it’s so very much less damaging than hard Brexit - you must have realised by now how destructive hard Brexit will be.

PestyMachtubernahme · 01/04/2019 22:46

Goldman Sachs reckon that Brexit has cost £600 million a week. Ouch
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/brexit-is-costing-the-economy-600-million-a-week-1-5971081

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 22:47

This in the Guardian just now:

European parliament's lead Brexit spokesman says no-deal Brexit 'nearly inevitable'

Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s lead Brexit spokesman, says a no-deal Brexit (which is what they mean in Brussels by the term “hard Brexit”) has become “nearly inevitable”.

Fuuuuuuck

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 22:48

Considering the Tiggers just threw away a chance to vote for compromise (as did Libdems - and SNP on CU) I;m not surprised he's not joining them.
They're being ridiculous. A P.V only works if they make a bloody decision about what to put on the ballot. And as people inclined to favour remain anyway they should be doing their damndest to make sure the 'leave' option is a s soft as possible - so if leave wins again it doesn't have to be a disaster.
They have to realise that a P.V is not in competition with various forms of brexit - it is the next stage of development. Brexit has to be decided upon before we get to the voting in a new referendum stage. I'm really disappointed in them.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 01/04/2019 22:49

Mark Francois is an odious toad.

MP for Rayleigh, Essex. Hope he is not representative of his constituents.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 01/04/2019 22:49

Anna Soubry and Peter Kyle giggling away on Sky News have infuriated me

Not that I want to see a House full of weeping MPs, but given how stressful I'm finding this just watching, there is something odd about the bouyancy of some of our honourable representatives. It doesn't do much to dispel the idea that at the end of the day it's all a bit of a game to some of them (and Laura K)

woman19 · 01/04/2019 22:49

Sorry, swears incoming.

We have strategies, non partisanship, non violent resistance, organisation, tenacity and integrity standing side by side against fascists outside parliament and town centres.

Have done for nearly 3 years.

Those fuckers inside parliament need to get their shit together and fucking talk to each other and organise.

Otherwise, it's going to be all of us having to deal with the fascists at the meat counter down the supermarket and at the passport lines.

What times.

whenthewhistleblows · 01/04/2019 22:50

I do see your point Sunshine1239. The soft Brexit makes us rule takers rather than rule makers.

But the economic devastation which would be caused by a no deal Brexit is unthinkable.

Soft Brexit no deal Brexit both leave us in a worse position than remaining.

If I had to choose between being a rule taker (soft Brexit) and economic devastation (no deal), I’d probably go with soft Brexit. We lose our sovereignty but at least there’s food on the table.

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 22:51

Do remainers not think similar? That full leave is better than half in/out with no say?

Nope. I'd rather stay fully in, but accept that soft Brexit is a compromise.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 22:51

The hardcore vote down everything except the option they want, so they would regard tonight as a victory

Those who won't compromise are enabling No Deal

The ERG are laughing their arses off in the subsidised bars

woman19 · 01/04/2019 22:53

Ah well, James Patrick did say...........

Looks like that's that.

UtterlyPerfectCartoonGiraffe · 01/04/2019 22:54

My MP voted no to everything except Ken Clarke's CU. On which she abstained. Angry. What’s wrong with them all? How are they so unable to make anything work?

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 22:54

The ERG are laughing their arses off in the subsidised bars

Mobs can turn against their leaders.

OogieMcBoogie · 01/04/2019 22:55

Polly Toynbee writing in the Guardian that we should feel reassured that ‘no-deal can’t happen ‘ because there are enough sensible MPs to do whatever it takes to stop it. Wish I had her optimism! SadConfused

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 22:55

To be fair, it seems that brexiteers are in a difficult position when it comes to compromise. They know the middle ground (soft Brexit) is worse than staying in. So they cannot really compromise - they have to go full tilt for no deal. But it makes them look bloody unreasonable when they refuse to compromise.

cherin · 01/04/2019 22:57

I was on the phone with my mum in Italy earlier and even she (the person less grounded in the present and in the sphere of practicality you’ll ever meet) started telling me “listen, but these politicians up there...everybody here seems to be laughing at them...at they seriously that bad? Are they doing it to make us feel better? Because it seems to work...”