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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

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Motheroffourdragons · 29/03/2019 22:33

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Mistigri · 29/03/2019 22:33

I have to say if I were an MP I'd be with Ken Clarke on this. He's willing to go for the customs union option

I'm puzzled by this option. I'm not sure what it gives us that the existing WA and PD don't give us (since the WA is compatible with a customs union, and indeed the all-UK backstop is effectively a customs union). And I do not understand how you get there, because any negotiation will require an extension and EP elections. While there may be a majority for a customs union (since Labour may vote for this), there will also need to be a majority for an extension and EP elections and I'm much more dubious about that.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:34

Tom Newton Dunnn@tnewtondunn*

If MPs aren’t depressed enough as it is after this afternoon, this is now spreading like wildfire on social media.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
Mistigri · 29/03/2019 22:35

Also, I am glad the May deal didn't pass. The WA with no PD and a change of Tory leader (presumably they'll elect a head-banger) is basically a recipe for a rapid breach of the WA and an eventual no-deal under even more acrimonious circumstances that will trash what little is left of the UK's reputation.

Tanith · 29/03/2019 22:37

Does anyone know why newspapers often put both of Tommy Robinson's names? Eg "Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, the far-right activist also known as Tommy Robinson"

I expect it is to avoid ambiguity. He has taken his name from a football hooligan called Tommy Robinson, and I always think of Tom Robinson, the singer/songwriter who had several hits in the late 70s ("2,4,6,8 Motorway", "Glad to be Gay", "Don't take No for an Answer"), whenever I hear the name.

Motheroffourdragons · 29/03/2019 22:38

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:40

Since the PD is non-binding, I can't get excited about what's in it, if anything.
An ERG PM can just bin it

The EU have said clearly they only care about the WA, so long as the PD doesn't contain a unicorn.

GreatAuntBertha · 29/03/2019 22:44

Rory Stewart on Newsnight sounds as sick as a parrot. He can barely muster up any discernible support for May. Try as he might.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:44

NI would have to be treated differently to ensure a frictionless goods border with the RoI,
unless the whole UK is in the SM + CU
i.e. BRINO

RHTawneyonabus · 29/03/2019 22:45

If there’s anywhere it’s inappropriate to to wave a union flag, surely it’s the leaver protests. Brexit will certainly lead to an independent Scotland and a united Ireland.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:46

Hugo Rifkindd@hugorifkind*

It's amazing. She's like a really drab Terminator.

Tr1skel1on · 29/03/2019 22:47

Delurking to say Yay!!! At 11pm tonight we will still be in the EU :) I follow these threads closely, most accurate information source I have found. Huge thanks to all the knowledgeable people who contribute

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:48

Brexit will cause the dissolution of the UK
Unless it genuinely is BRINO

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:50

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=mobile.twitter.com/hugorifkind" target="_blank">Hugo Rifkindd<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=mobile.twitter.com/hugorifkind" target="_blank">@hugorifkind

Is there anybody left who resigned over the Brexit deal, who isn't now backing the Brexit deal?

lonelyplanetmum · 29/03/2019 22:52

SamCoatesTimes says that dozens of MPs next week have a tutorial scheduled on what the customs union is from some trade experts...

FFS

Motheroffourdragons · 29/03/2019 22:53

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RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 22:55

Yes Clarke custom union option is whole NI and gb, whereas the backstop isn't. He's also identified something that has reasonable appeal to Labour. Personally I think Common Market 2 is better and that has a better cross party split on support between Lab and Cons which is now crucial. I hope if we go down that route, support for Clarke proposal will filter to Common Market 2.0. And the fact the DUP are now exploring it is encouraging.

The reality is, and always has been due to the GFA that Common Market 2 has always been roughly the best fit with the border and the unions integrity. No Deal has a far chance of ultimately ending up in a not dissimilar place due to keeping the border open and what will be the political necessity that springs from the reality of no deal to keep food and medicine coming in.

I do not see how the fantasy of Canada plus nor WTO will work in real terms without complete social collapse. Short of Trump basically buying out the UK.

We could save ourselves the political trauma of all it. Except too many MPs have fuck all idea about what a flaming custom union is on the very day we were supposed to leave. That's gross negligence. And they are in public office.

I know that accepting the WA is a controversial position for this thread, but even May's PD makes anything but the backstop as a minimum fairly unlikely. Not if you want to maintain the union.

And that's precisely why the ERG have been pissy about it for so long.

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prettybird · 29/03/2019 22:58

Not sure if it was Sky or the state broadcaster but one of them did an item about how since Hmm the Referendum, people have been debating what it means. It also brought together Leavers from wherever voted most strongly Leave (75% - Boston) with Remainers from the strongest Remain area (75% too - somewhere in London). The Bostonions actually admitted that if they'd understood that immigration and diversity wasn't something to be feared, they might have had a different attitude.

Dh and I mused, not just about the article, but the fact that it said that people had been debating across the country since the referendum Confused

The difference in Scotland was that we were debating before the Indyref Confused - as we should have been doing Smile. Some say that it was divisive but personally we didn't come across that. I will however acknowledge that I lived (and live) in a Yes bubble - not deliberately as I have FB friends from across the spectrum including many old work colleagues and have never had to block or de-friend anyone. Smile There was only one friend I had to agree not to discuss the Indyref with as she found it distressing (for various reasons, which I respected Sad), so we just talked about our other shared interests Smile

Ditto with Remain. Somehow thankfully I live in Remain bubble Grin. Choice or natural selection? Wink

Icantreachthepretzels · 29/03/2019 23:00

Congratulations my fellow EU citizens on your EU citizenship. Long may it continue Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star Star
Happy 11pm.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 23:00

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: May hit by fresh Brexit revolt. 170 Tory MPs - including 10 Cabinet ministers - sent letter to her today demanding UK leaves EU within next few months, deal or no deal

* Letter insists PM upholds 2017 manifesto, meaning no long exit delay and no EU elections
* Gove, Javid, Hunt and Leadsom among 20 ministers believed to have signed the secret letter, delivered to No10 after today’s vote
* But Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay refused to sign

One Brexiteer minister who signed letter: “Two thirds of the parliamentary party have sent the PM a very clear message. We want to leave the EU on April 12 or very soon afterwards”.

Let's be blunt about this. With no WA passed and no WAIB in sight, this means No Deal. Simply for technical reasons and the time frame we are left with.

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RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 23:01

raises a glass

Oh fuck it

raises a bottle

Gin

To all Westminstenders. Glad to still be in.

For now at least.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 23:02

Yep, they're still Brexit lemmings

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 23:03

🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺
🇪🇺 #IAmEuropean 🇪🇺
🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺

STILL

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 23:04

Oh yeah that letter, did anyone forget we had a Tory leadership election happening.

That's your reminder in case and of you have forgotten.

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Motheroffourdragons · 29/03/2019 23:04

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