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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 22:01

Express

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
Mistigri · 29/03/2019 22:01

No deal is now odds on IMO.

MPs think that because they have voted against it, that it can't happen. But first they have to vote FOR something, and I think too many believe that an extension can just be grabbed off the shelf at the last moment. There's no sense of urgency ... no sense that the EU will draw a line in the sand at some point, and we have no control over where and when that will be.

I think EU opinion is moving in favour of no deal rather than prolonging the agony.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 22:02

Telegraph.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
PigeonofDoom · 29/03/2019 22:03

I bloody love fortean times. Started reading it after watching Fortean tv in the late 90s.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 29/03/2019 22:05

Dr Dre, Lady Gaga and Frank Skinner
Lady Gaga's name is referenced fairly often to the point I know it Stefani Germannotta (spelling probably wrong). I don't know the other's names but then they are artists where stage names are normal. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon on the other hand is not in one of those professions,though he's not alone I'm looking at you Gideon

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:06

Jeremy Cliffe@JeremyCliffe

European leaders and officials are worried that a chaotic post-Brexit Britain could drift into the arms of China or Trump's US

Senior EU figures fret that Beijing and Washington will make FTAs conditional on foreign policy concessions
and that a Britain desperate for trade deals but with few experienced negotiators will end up caught in a tug-of-war between the two powers.

Britain's amateurish and ill-planned Brexit negotiations, along with the perception that it is already softening certain foreign-policy positions ahead of trade talks, have heightened concerns in Brussels, Berlin and other capitals about its post-Brexit diplomatic vulnerability.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/03/30/britains-neighbours-fret-that-it-could-drift-away

....could exploit its weaknesses, imposing conditions that peel Britain away from Europe’s foreign-policy caravanserai
and leave it in a position similar to that of Turkey:^
a semi-European player with unpredictable foreign entanglements.

dontcallmelen · 29/03/2019 22:08

Thank you Red, I think the thread title is very apt, also yy the pp comments on how helpful & concise your summaries are & I really appreciate everything you are doing.
My sincere thanks to all the informative & helpful posters on these threads I am in awe of the collective knowledge.
I was out all day, which I was actually quite glad about as I was really quite depressed yesterday & I couldn’t believe my ears when I heard Nigel Dodds on the car radio saying DUP would rather stay than have a hard brexit, my my are they finally going to listen to the voters of N.I.
also echo pp, I don’t hate Jeremy Corbyn but I do wish he would just fuck off to his shed, Labour actually do have some very talented people just such a shame one of them is not the leader of the party.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 22:09

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
So @SamCoatesTimes says that dozens of MPs next week have a tutorial scheduled on what the customs union is from some trade experts...

It’s for Conservative MPs, as I understand it, organised by backbenchers...

I think we are all Mhairi

Mhairi Black MP @mhairiblack
Give. Me. Strength.

It also confirms exactly what we suspected many moons ago, that this lot are lazy fucking arses who never bothered to learn the basics of their job over Brexit and have been winging it all the way through.

They think that because they can do this, experts are pointless. The converse is true. Cos they are so feckless we need experts to ensure these dickheads don't fuck everything up.

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Apileofballyhoo · 29/03/2019 22:10

The newspapers are terrible. Embrace no deal? That's so irresponsible.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:10

The DUPEs have finally woken up to the threat Brexit poses of NI being detached from GB

They haven't suddenly become nice people

They are still sectarian fascists

dontcallmelen · 29/03/2019 22:11

BcF that’s fucking frightening, Christ how are these people allowed out by themselves.

Apileofballyhoo · 29/03/2019 22:12

DH saw that tweet earlier. Is it that they have led lives of such privilege they've never actually had to work for anything? Just follow what the whip says for votes?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:13

I hope those trade experts explain why the CU alone can never deliver frictionless trade,
which JIT manufacturing, Irish border etc require

That requires the SM

dontcallmelen · 29/03/2019 22:13

Yy they are still sectarian fascists, with a dollop of nasty bigotry.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:15

Mhairi Black has been one of my fav MPs ever since she was elected 💪🏼

Apileofballyhoo · 29/03/2019 22:16

Does anyone remember Theresa May asking JC in the HoC if he even knew what the CU was?

mrslaughan · 29/03/2019 22:17

Shamelessly placemarking....

Tonsilss · 29/03/2019 22:21

.

Peregrina · 29/03/2019 22:22

Thousands join the pro-Bexit rally, apparently.

Judge for yourselves. a few hundred. There were more people going up the stairs and escalators at Marble Arch last Saturday.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:24

I hear rumours that 1 or 2 MPs watch these threads, so my take ...

Customs Union
• eliminates customs duties in bilateral trade, UK-EU
• establishes a joint customs tariff (the UK would just retain the EU one) for foreign importers

The requirement for a common external tariff is what infuriates the ERG,
because it prevents the UK negotiating third country trade deals
(at least not without a lot of EU cooperation)

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 22:25

Mistigri, I have to be perfectly honest and say that I don't understand why everyone is so pleased with May's deal being down when it makes the risk of no deal so high.

There were a couple of people condemning the Labour rebels today, but again I can't aim anger at them.

I have to say if I were an MP I'd be with Ken Clarke on this. He's willing to go for the customs union option, though he thinks remain is best and A50 should never have been triggered. He has a strong belief that no deal should be avoided at all costs.

At this point I'm losing patience with the Hardline of the snp and the LDs. Everyone has complained about the hard line of the ERG.

But the indicative votes, showed up to me, just how entrenched some Remainers are. And I believe that to be dangerous. Not because its resistance to Brexit, but because accidental no deal can only happen because of that lack of pragmatism.

I don't believe the LDs will back down. They have the whisper lingering in their ears if 'you betrayed us over tuition fees'.

Pragmatism versus purity once again and party political bullshit. Its playing with fire past the point where its a calculated gamble. We are into recklessness now.

The Conservatives and Labour really have been lambasted for party politics but the reality is they are all a massive shit show over this. And hats off to Caroline Lucas for showing at least some wisdom over the indicative vote.

I am not hopeful of a deal and less hopeful for revoke.

I hope that time will prove me wrong.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:28

red You summed up exactly where I am

OhYouBadBadKitten · 29/03/2019 22:31

I'm still hoping for revoke.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/03/2019 22:32

steve hawkes@steve_hawkes

EXCL

DUP held talks with Tories backing Common Market 2.0 (Norway) on Thursday.

The proposal has now been tweaked to try and win the Ulster unionist’s backing on Monday

www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8751606/tory-rebels-norway-style-brexit-proposal/

NeverTalksToStrangers · 29/03/2019 22:32

I'm from NI.

Trust me, I've been saying this for years now, the DUP never wanted brexit. They only campaigned to leave to appear more British (because being British is the bestest thing ever). Never in a million years did they expect leave to actually win. Bit like Boris.

Whether they are euro sceptic or not, they know that the demographic of NI is changing and any sort of brexit fast tracks a united Ireland by 10-20 years. Every single nationalist I've mentioned it to agrees that brexit would convince them to vote for UI in a border poll. They also know that no type of brexit will be financially good for NI. If we do leave, I'll almost look forward to the day their incredibly gullible electorate realises what they voted for.

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