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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
TheMShip · 31/03/2019 14:54

twitter.com/JoeTwyman/status/1112300919599841281?s=20

Public support for indicative vote options is split, no majority.

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 14:54

The WA is one of the 3 outcomes. If the UK wishes to remain then there is no fundamental problem.
ANY form of departure will have to follow the WA, whether it is passing it as it is, then negotiating, or by crashing out , which the EU will then insist the WA is signed before any further discussions.
The ball is pretty squarely in the EU's court so there is no point in the UK government. HoC/HoL getting sniffy about it the WA, or something exceedingly similar to it HAS to be signed. Listening to the clip from World this weekend, it seems the defense secretary (not Gavin) seems to have got this message. Only another 649 to go.
he was incorrect, the UK has until the early morning of the 10th to get a plan together so that the EU can discuss it.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 14:56

That poll includes something called "alternative plan"
That means "none of the above" ?
In which case, probably another unicorn

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 14:59

I wonder if those who support No Deal realise that the Uk will have to sign up to the 3 main things in the WA

  • Backstop, exit bill, permanent expat rights -
before the EU will start trade negotiations
BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 15:03

According to that poll, about 20% of remain voters support No Deal

I wonder if some of that's the confusion already found, thinking that No Deal = status quo, i.e. Remain

TheMShip · 31/03/2019 15:05

I wondered that too, but the thread author says all options were explained. Not sure how good that explanation was...

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 15:20

I wonder if those who support No Deal realise that the Uk will have to sign up to the 3 main things in the WA

What is the difference between "supporting no deal" and "mindlessly parroting what Farage says" ? Apart from a working brain ?

howabout · 31/03/2019 15:23

The poll options don't sum to 100% so were done on the same basis as the Indicative Votes. So I interpret the 20% of Remain voters who would accept No Deal as having 1st pref Revoke, 2nd pref New Referendum, 3rd pref No Deal because they hate all the half in / half out fudges so much.

If you asked me the same set of questions I would go 1st pref Revoke (on the Mervyn King rationale of preparing for No Deal or even to see if Remain and Reform actually has legs), 2nd pref No Deal, 3rd pref New Referendum (in which I would feel compelled to vote Remain if the alternative was any of the terrible Deal options on offer).

It is a very interesting survey because it highlights that the voters of all persuasions are not at all fooled by the "compromises" which don't deliver.

Horehound · 31/03/2019 15:24

Hi sorry dont have time to to through 33 pages...these threads move fast hehe.

Can someone tell me how TM can bring back her WA for MV4 because surely the last vote where it was split from the PD cannot be voted on again due to it not having a significant change??
So what's happening to allow that to go through?

borntobequiet · 31/03/2019 15:30

As someone whose profession is based on explaining things to people, I can confidently say that having something explained, however well, doesn’t inevitably mean it is properly understood.

howabout · 31/03/2019 15:31

Horehound current thinking is to roll it into the actual vote on the legislation thus making it "different" (I think?)

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 15:34

Can someone tell me how TM can bring back her WA for MV4 because surely the last vote where it was split from the PD cannot be voted on again due to it not having a significant change??

I think we'd all like to know too ....

So what's happening to allow that to go through?

has it been confirmed as happening ? Unlike our Leaver chums, it'd be nice to have some facts before going into interminable discussions that won't resolve anything.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the governments argument will be that EB needs to be interpreted as preventing repeat votes in succession. Since the MV3 on Friday was different to MV2, then MV4 can be the same as MV2, just not MV3.

Remember that scene in "Indiana Jones" where Indy (?) is faced with a sword wielding maniac and just pulls a gun and shoots him. Totally ungentlemanly, but when the end justifies the means ....

That's the real danger of the past two years ... it's allowed politicians of all stripes to use the referendum result as a "the end justifies the means" cudgel over everything that made the UK passably more bearable to live in than some regimes.

Horehound · 31/03/2019 15:38

Well DG her speech hinted she was going to bring it back, I'm watching logical now and Andrew made is talking about it being brought back it's clearly an option but I'm unsure of the circumstances. I thought any vote can't be voted on again within the same term so they have already voted on MV1, 2 and 3 so if assume 4 needs to be different again. Hmm

tobee · 31/03/2019 15:41

I saw Laura K down at the dogs a few years back GrinGrinGrin

Horehound · 31/03/2019 15:42

Can labour call a vote of no confidence?

tobee · 31/03/2019 15:45

In the government I believe, Hore. I don't think there's a time thing like there is with Tory leader brought by other Tories?

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 15:46

Well DG her speech hinted she was going to bring it back, I'm watching logical now and Andrew made is talking about it being brought back it's clearly an option but I'm unsure of the circumstances. I thought any vote can't be voted on again within the same term so they have already voted on MV1, 2 and 3 so if assume 4 needs to be different again. Hmm

Well if she doesn't bring it back, then what else is there ?

I hope all the other parties have had a pow-wow and got a clear "fuck you Theresa and the Tories " message if she tries to pretend that Brexit failed because of a lack of cross-party co-operation.

Things may seem shit in some regards, right now. But one warming consolation is the total lack of any triumphalism from the Leave contingent. So much for their march. So much for their street parties. So much for their coin. I hope they got their deposit back for the flypast they commissioned. I also hope that when they booked it and took out insurance they got grief for "not believing in Brexit" and being a traitor.

Of course, the lack of bunting or preparations for a Wetherspoons Brexit Brunch does rather make it seem as it Tim Martin lacked the confidence himself ....

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 15:56

If the Uk Revokes, the EU will keep this WA document in the Commission safe

Then if the UK Invokes A50 again, there will be no negotiations, just the WA presented again

  • unless of course Ireland has Renunited by then, in which case there would still be no cake, but the backstop would of course be deleted
BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 15:57

The UK issues with FOM could probably be dealt with by the UK actually bothering to enforce the rules

Horehound · 31/03/2019 15:58

Watching John major on Andrew marr..I like him, he's speaking very sensibly.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 16:08

I thought he was a decent PM, but he had the misfortune to come in after 10 years of Thatcher,
plus the Brexiter "bastards" as he called them, were already batshit agitators wrecking the party

The 13 years in Opposition, during the 3 Blair victories , made the Tory party machine control the obesessed Brexiters,
but as soon as the Tories gained power again, out came the batshitters

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 16:09

Unless the UK revokes, the ONLY other option is to sign the WA.
That is the position of the EU who have been saying this since November and for some reason I believe a bloc of 27 countries saying the same thing consistently for 5 Months rather than a bunch of UK politicians that are running around chasing their tails like a dog, while spouting bollocks.
The quicker the UK realises this and makes the choice, the better.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 16:13

A Revoke decision now could well be permanent

  • which is why the TINY possibility of that happening has panicked some of the ERG into scuttling over to the WA:

If the Tories indeed are severely punished for the Brexit debacle, so that Labour win the next 2-3 GEs,
then demographic changes - and an overwhelmingly remain Labour membership calling the shots - mean Brexit is dead forever.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 16:15

According to that poll, about 20% of remain voters support No Deal

I have friends in this camp (friends multiple). Its definitely a thing.

One wants it as a way to kill off the far right. It's almost saying well you voted for Christmas you turkey.

I do think there is a fair number of, particularly better off, Remainers who think like this.

I'm surprised it's as high as 20% but I'm not surprised it's higher than people suspect.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 16:17

If the Tories indeed are severely punished for the Brexit debacle, so that Labour win the next 2-3 GEs

How will they do that if Remainers won't vote for them, then ?