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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
Tanith · 31/03/2019 12:53

The Conservatives already have a party within a party in the ERG.
This looks like a spiteful individual going after someone who defeated him in the election. VA is still referring to him as UKIP.
Is the Conservative party really so broad a church that it allows personal vendettas?

woodpigeons · 31/03/2019 13:09

leave.eu’s instructions on how to deselect your MP.
Dominic Grieve is on their list.
The founder of leave.eu, Arron Banks has been/is being investigated about overspending on the Leave campaign and where the money actually came from. Russian involvement is suspected.

leave.eu/deselect-your-remainer-tory-mp/

Peregrina · 31/03/2019 13:11

What happens if [the Mace] is stolen, or even destroyed ?

I can tell you. The borrow the one from Abingdon, which is exactly the same, and has been used before when the HoC Mace has been sent off for refurbishment.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 13:16

One antidote to the whipping system - or a balance - is the notion of having a primary run-off for candidates for selection.

I was amazed to read a few years ago that the Tories of all parties had experimented with this

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_parliamentary_primaries

which has the advantage of allowing local issues to be folded into a party policy.

However there's an inherent paradox in trying to correct the problem of voter apathy by initiatives which require more voter effort. It's the UKIP problem. All very well to expend a shitload of effort to reach the 10% that never vote, but then you have to continue expending much more effort for fewer votes than the low-hanging-fruit of committed voters.

Sadly the one thing which isn't really being discussed at the moment is how Brexit is ultimately a function of the UKs broken constitution. And unless we address that, we'll just have another Brexit moment in ten years time.

woodpigeons · 31/03/2019 13:18

The person who was active in deselecting Dominic Grieve is a UKIP supporter.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 13:22

I wonder if it's possible to be a member of all major parties simultaneously ? Moreover how would anyone know ?

SalmonFishing · 31/03/2019 13:25

I can't imagine they share their databases with one another! In the age of GDPR I'm sure you could be a communist party member and a UKIP member.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 13:32

I can't imagine they share their databases with one another! In the age of GDPR I'm sure you could be a communist party member and a UKIP member

Is it too mischivious to ask how valid this makes any UK political party membership ? have loads of Russian bots been given time off from c'n'pasting WILL OF THE PEOPLE/WE WON GET OVER IT/TWO FOR ONE AT VASILEYS (I imagine they sometimes get the odd mixup at campaign central ...) and diverted to signing up "people" to the Tory party ? All that Russian owned property in London would make great addresses for imaginary people ???????????

In fact, I'd be disappointed if it hasn't happened. Although if any Russian meglomaniacs are reading, I can be contacted via MNHQ for a current price list of other state disruption techniques for sale this month.

TemporaryPermanent · 31/03/2019 13:45

Fucking hell. That leave.eu page on deselection is really terrifying. 'Oliver Letwin's takeover of parliament'?? the formation of myths and scapegoats.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 13:47

Incidentally, I see Facebook might be the first example of post-Brexit politics playing out in the wild.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47762091

By pre-empting governments around the world, not only has "The Zuck" neatly dumped the whole steaming pile of shit directly into their laps, he's also ensured a good few years of disagreements over how regulation should look. Meaning Facebook gets to look like the victim in the face of political incompetence.

Compare and contrast with the growing narrative that Leavers are the victims ...

If "The Zuck" was worth what he pays himself, he should have come up with this years ago.

Notice he's also laid the ground for a "What ? Us ?" defence in any future political campaigning controversies ...

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 13:49

Of course, Leave.EU could be infiltrated by moderates - two can play at that game.

Alternatively Leave.EU could be infiltrated by moderates who deliberately set a fascist agenda just to sully Leave.EUs good reputation with stories of far-right infiltration (is what I'd be saying if I was Leave.EU).

borntobequiet · 31/03/2019 13:50

Well I’m pleased that by sympathetic magic, me pedalling very hard on the stationary bike has increased the rate of petition signing. I was so excited about the six million that I forgot my socks. But was OK.
I don’t enjoy the gym so time my Sunday session so I can watch the excellent Dateline London while warming up on the bike/cross trainer:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003xh2
Good Brexit discussion almost every week.

borntobequiet · 31/03/2019 14:02

An unusually good vox pop from TM’s constituency a few minutes in to World this Weekend, for once talking to people who seem to understand the issues:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003sz0

Sostenueto · 31/03/2019 14:03

londonresident I would never, ever vote Tory but thanks anyway!Grin

prettybird · 31/03/2019 14:04

howabout - you missed out a word in "(he [Paxman] in contrast, has gone a bit too far down the patronising know all route for University Challenge imho)^ analysis Wink

It should be "(he, in contrast, has gone a bit too far down the patronising git know all route for University Challenge imho "WinkGrin

prettybird · 31/03/2019 14:11

Peregrina - I thought the same re the mace. They'll just replace it with a replica and stuff (rightly Wink) the constitutional niceties Grin (There are some that do matter: the presence of the "real" mace is not one of them Confused)

TheMShip · 31/03/2019 14:15

A new petition: if there's a referendum, give the vote to UK citizens abroad and to EU citizens in the UK.

t.co/Mbko9yNWeL

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 14:15

I thought the same re the mace. They'll just replace it with a replica and stuff (rightly Wink) the constitutional niceties

The problem with a pick'n'mix attitude to rules and laws is we end up where we are today. Is something allowed or not ? Nobody is quite sure. Arbitrary justice is the tool of the despot, not the democratic.

prettybird · 31/03/2019 14:37

There are some things that are purely for appearance and others that are more existential for democracy, like whether a government should be allowed to bring bank repeatedly the same defeated proposal.

The presence or not of the mace falls into the former category whereas MV x+1 falls into the latter Hmm

One right, one wrong Sad

With charlatans like the ones we are currently inflicted with, who pick and choose what they want to abide by Angry, it demonstrates that we need a written constitution. Confused

PestyMachtubernahme · 31/03/2019 14:41

Problems for Change UK @TheIndGroup

Change.org UK @UKChange
It's said that imitation is a form of flattery. But the movement we've built in the UK to win campaigns for ordinary people is ours - all 17 million of us. We are seeking guidance on the proposed use of our brand name by those reported to be setting up a new political party
www.change.org

They don't like a political party using a similar name to them.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 14:45

There are some things that are purely for appearance and others that are more existential for democracy,

Ah, but who decides ? And can that decision be challenged ?

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 14:46

That's my concern too, DG
"Just for emergencies" never is - so we end up with councils waging bin wars, using powers intended for tackling terrorists.

prettybird · 31/03/2019 14:47

Why don't the TIGs take a lead out of Macron's book and call themselves something like "Forwards" ? Grin

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 14:52

For various reasons, the Psychoactive Substances Act was under scrutiny a while back (in Fortean Times ....). It was noted that as passed, incense is a Psychoactive Substance (there had to be specific exemptions for Alcohol and Tobacco, so already it's obvious the act is to legislate morality, not safety). It was noted that English courts are allowed to throw out cases where they are "clearly intended to cause mischief" (my paraphrasing).

So that's a new law which is basically a "what we want it to mean" law as opposed to "what's written down" law.

Hence my deep distrust and cynicism that there are plenty more dirty tricks in the (lack of) constitutional cannon.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 14:54

SIgned, Mship Expats need votes in GEs too
No taxation without representation !

i have to fill in an HMRC tax return for UK income and pay tax on it,
more importantly is that when I snuff it, my heirs would have to pay UK IHT, as it is very difficult to change residence

  • I may give up my UK citizenship to avoid this, if expats don't get the vote within the next few years