Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:09

{There's a strong element of 'emperor's clothes' about 'hard right' threats.}

Although it would be nice to think that, but the ones on the streets are just the 'useful idiots'. There are plenty of them and to the real leaders in the shadows they are expendable, there are always plenty of drunks on a Saturday night 'up for a fight'.
Even the likes of Farage and the ERG are only part way up the food chain, being on the edge of 'respectability' and mostly smart enough to keep the right side of most laws.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 11:10

Petition has broken 6,000,000

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 11:11

.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
Songsofexperience · 31/03/2019 11:14

That's a great one DGR 😂

woman19 · 31/03/2019 11:14

there are always plenty of drunks on a Saturday night 'up for a fight
Millions of pounds of police resources are spent controlling violent men; it's business as usual really.

I was concerned on Friday about that daft rally.

In fact, the weather was lovely, London rumbled on as normal and even Trafalgar Square at clubbing time was full of fun seeking youngsters on Friday night, according to an informed source. Wink

They come across as so much more thoughtful and reasonable than more recent PMs. Shows the gaping vacuum for centrist politics at the moment.
I agree. Absolutely. They are wise counsellors.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 11:15

Re what would cause less far right rioting...perhaps controversially I suspect No Deal would keep people too busy to form any kind of rebellion.

If you have no food and the shops are empty, what are you going to be busy doing?

Food shortages due to political reasons are a surefire way to civil unrest. Its not the same as famine. People are actively looking for someone to blame.

I don't normally watch the sunday politics shows. I just caught the end of Major on Marr. Wow, how refreshing. And just wise sounding.

Its noticable in its unusualness.

His proposal of a temporary government of national government is interesting, in the context of May potentially having half her cabinet quitting underneath her and potentially not being able to call a GE either.

It would be the only option open to her. The question would then be, which opposition MPs would be willing to put their own party politics aside and serve in her Unity Cabinet? And thats where I get stuck on how on earth it would work.

OP posts:
onalongsabbatical · 31/03/2019 11:18

The rate at which the petition is being signed has now suddenly leapt back up to 48 a minute from much lower earlier and yesterday - can't remember the details. But 48 a minute is more like what it was doing early last week, so that's massive.

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:19

{Millions of pounds of police resources are spent controlling violent men}
That is of course shamefull but my point was that at present violence is optional. With real hardships would see women joining in too, although maybe in slightly more subtle ways.

woman19 · 31/03/2019 11:20

Millions of pounds of police resources are spent controlling violent men
Sorry, should have said 'wasted'. Violent men need to learn the basics of civilised behaviour. They cost us too much.
Not all men Le clerk before you get all meninisty Grin Wink

which opposition MPs would be willing to put their own party politics aside and serve in her Unity Cabinet

Millions of voters would be so impressed with MPs with the courage to do this.

The 6m plus have been working cross party for 3 years to do exactly this.

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 11:25

The question would then be, which opposition MPs would be willing to put their own party politics aside and serve in her Unity Cabinet?

I'd hope .... none. No-one - even a non politician - can possibly enter into any such arrangement in good faith after the past two years. Theresa May is personally toxic. That's not a primary school strop, it's the harsh reality.

Now a Unity government under a different PM could be possible if that different PM had zero baggage from the past two years (which rules out any front bench MP).

Sorry, but once again we return to that old trope the best way to get there is not to start from here ...

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:25

If you think bad things can't happen, look again at Venezuela. On paper it is a very rich country as it has oil a plenty. It was similar in amenities to an 'average' EU country not long back. The corrupt government has destroyed it and you see now the effects of violence and looting. It is a tragedy.

TheABC · 31/03/2019 11:26

Just to cheer you up even more, BoJo and Give are now being asked about the Vote Leave lawbreaking. It's rather muted on the news front, simply because I suspect that the Telegraph and Mail don't want anything to detract from their Leave campaign and the BBC could not provide"balanced" coverage.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/30/gove-johnson-under-fire-vote-leave-fine-appeal-dropped

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:30

{Not all men Le clerk before you get all meninisty}

If you get me angry I will get together with DGR and a couple of the others, open a nice bottle of something and 'bitch'* a lot!

  • put the world to rights in a constructive discussional sort of way.
woman19 · 31/03/2019 11:33

I dare you to start a meninist chat thread leclerk Wink Grin

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 31/03/2019 11:34

I’m hoping the Queen asks TM lots of pertinent questions during their next audience. TM is toadying enough that she will probably listen and want to suck up to HM.

John Major is a Kinight of the Garter so I’m sure he’s been briefing the Queen. Tony Blair has also been making lots of sensible comments on TV.

Agree that there is a huge vacuum in centrist politics.
I think this is what TIG / ChangeUK is trying to fill

A cross path hover should also take advice from former pms such as Major, Blair and Brown. not Cameron though

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 31/03/2019 11:34
  • cross party government
FusionChefGeoff · 31/03/2019 11:36

Question to the very knowledgeable people on this thread: I am (embarrassingly) shocked to finally see the impact that the whip has on our country. Fully believing up until now that I was NOT voting for a PM but instead a local candidate and a party. The use of the whip (apart from a very small minority of rebels) totally blows that out of the water and makes the actual politicians pretty pointless.

I would LOVE to see a proper free vote on both sides.

Is there any way parliament can make that happen?????

It's ridiculous that we have these valid options on the table and there's such a huge divide in red vote for this and blue vote for that. We might as well have fucking robots in the House rather than (allegedly) highly intelligent, educated representatives.

It feels as if we are NOT looking for a majority in the real sense of the word ie we are not getting a view on what most individual MPs think is the best option.

Under the whip, all we really get is a view on what JC thinks and what TM thinks.

And we know that - just ask them!

It makes me so angry but I'd be delighted if anyone could put a more reasonable spin on why this system is in place and the benefits it brings.

But mainly, is there anything we can do to remove it for this process?!?

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:49

{I dare you to start a meninist chat thread leclerk }

It would have to be a 'peopleist' thread as I prefer to think about subjects for discussion rather than be concerned about assorted 'wobbly or floppy bits' that people may or may not have.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 31/03/2019 11:54

Just watching Andrew Marr on catch up. Had Laura Kuessenberg on there. She also has a documentary on Monday night where she’s been followed for a year. Should be interesting viewing

The80sweregreat · 31/03/2019 11:57

John Major spoke sense - i know his an ex Tory etc etc, but his comments were measured and had talk of ' comprise'.
Still wont solve anything though, but he was quite reassuring.

My dh really dislikes Kuessenberg, but i like her. she looks so young to be doing that job and it was must be tough at times as well.

howabout · 31/03/2019 12:17

Laura K's 42. (Faisal Islam is roughly same age). Just checked and she took on the job as Political Editor at the BBC when she was almost exactly the same age as Nick Robinson was when he took the job (he's only 55 now). She had been NR's deputy for yonks before then. I can remember comparing dress sense notes with her as she is a decade younger than me and often seemed to get caught out having been sent on a plane at short notice (used to shout advice to the telly at my younger self). Peston is ages with Robinson and was at his peak a decade ago commenting on the Financial crisis.

There's a profile of her in one of the weekend papers. Took her a while to grow into the role and she was a bit too uncynical to start with. She just needs to polish her Paxo edge a bit more now (he, in contrast, has gone a bit too far down the patronising know all route for University Challenge imho)

howabout · 31/03/2019 12:25

Fusion you need the Whipping system because both Labour and Tory are big tent coalitions who generally do the compromising internally before presenting a coherent choice for voters in the manifesto. Should always be room for individual non-whipped views on less central issues and also points of principle for accepted outliers or where policy is being developed rather than implemented.

No whipping would just lead to the current chaos all the time.

In a more pluralistic system I think it is even less accountable as all the politicking happens in the back room horse trading in order to get anything done. That is why I think the Clegg / Cameron pact was so damaging in neutering Parliament. Almost all their decisions are now unravelling due to lack of Party or Parliamentary scrutiny and too much expediency.

LondonResident · 31/03/2019 12:33

If you want a voice on who will be the next Conservative Party Leader join the Conservative Party ! You Don't need to be a citizen but must live here and be over 15.

And you have to be a member for 3months before you can participate. Please join today ! We need competent politicians !
www.kcfc.org.uk/membership

cherin · 31/03/2019 12:33

I really like her, and katya too. Their brexitcasts are terribly informative besides funny. I noticed the other night how the news at 10 was lead entirely by women and all great quality. I can’t agree with those who complain of bbc bias towards government and leave. You just have to watch any news from any state channel in Italy and you’d see how non-free the information is. It used to be in order: pope’s Opinion; leading parti opinion, second party opinion etc. They didn’t get to tell you what the issue was, only the opinions of the parties about the issue.
I love and adore the bbc, and really think they’re providing and amazing service. Definitely love the bbc more than the nhs, which is so revered but with which I’ve had enormously variable experiences (from the excellent to the appalling) :-) long live the bbc!

EweSurname · 31/03/2019 12:39

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
Theresa May has been “very clear” the Tory party will not let Dominic Grieve be deselected despite Friday’s no confidence vote claims Victoria Atkins

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina