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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 10:41

The mace is another part of the Constitution that needs to be dropped asap
Ridiculous that the HoC could not sit if it disappeared

What happens if it is stolen, or even destroyed ?

Presumably the govt of the day would use the Civil Contingencies Act to pass a law that the mace was no longer required
but what if the Act had been repealed by then ?

borntobequiet · 31/03/2019 10:42

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

Go on you know you want to (on the very small chance that anyone reading this thread hasn’t signed already)

Sostenueto · 31/03/2019 10:46

The mace is fine can't see a problem with it personally. Archaic but fine.

Langrish · 31/03/2019 10:48

BigChoc

Amazing in this febrile environment that it hasn’t been removed already: the temptation to do a Heseltine this week must have been almost irresistible for many Grin

Anyone else getting incredibly fed up with the choice of background music in BBC reporting? Yesterday it was Land of Hope and Glory over coverage of the Leave March, just now it was Flight of the Valkyries on Pienaar. That sort of editorial laziness is really going to help pull a divided nation together, not 😡

LonelyTiredandLow · 31/03/2019 10:49

There was a fuss about the mace being left unattended last week - makes a bit more sense now.

Langrish · 31/03/2019 10:50

borntobequiet

I’ve heard some pretty good gym avoidance strategies but ...... Grin

Sostenueto · 31/03/2019 10:51

5,999,777 signatures it will make 6 million today!

John Major absolutely right that there should have been a National Government to sort brexit. It takes out party politics and then agreement can be found.

NigellasGuest · 31/03/2019 10:52

@Fawful yes

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 10:53

prettybird I was very surprised when I first came to Germany to find that the CDU had some policies that are more supportive of the welfare state and the poor than the Labour party then !

It's typical EPP right of centre Christian Democrat

  • imo, the Christian bit is important to undertand them and why they adhere to an unspoken social contract that UK conservatives haven't since Harold McMillan's One Nation Tories died off

There is a consensus and understanding in Germany that public services need to be funded - and that this requires paying taxes
Borrowing would go against the (imo) frugal German culture but there is widespread acceptance of taxation

A major problem with the UK is the voters expecting French / German / Scandinavian levels of health care etc on US levels of tax - because politicians won't tell them this is a fantasy.

(There's a common thread of promising unicorns and arousing unrealistic expectations)

The doublethink is addressed by declaring a large proportion of the poor & vulnerable to be "undeserving" and "not like us"
Hence I deserve the best health care, child benefit etc, but they are scroungers who shoould not receive anything.

TiddleTaddleTat · 31/03/2019 10:53

John Major talking sense on Andrew Marr - any government negotiating a Brexit deal needs a clear majority

TiddleTaddleTat · 31/03/2019 10:55

Crikey... talking about a National Unity Government - last used in 1940

onalongsabbatical · 31/03/2019 10:56

Petition at 6 mill now - go on borntobequiet out you go!

Sakura7 · 31/03/2019 10:57

6 million reached :)

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 10:58

I'd be delighted if a temporary cross-party govt, just for Brexit, were possible - sadly unrealistic though

However, certainly justified by Brexit being the biggest event affecting the UK since WW2
Unlike WW2, being entirely self-inflicted, but that doesn't stop it being something too big for one party to tackle

borntobequiet · 31/03/2019 11:00

Hooray! Off to the gym!

woman19 · 31/03/2019 11:01

To be honest what scares me more about Brexit now is the rising fury of the growing hard right

Let them riot. They’ll all end up in prison like the 2010 rioters

True Tatiana

The Police were stunning on Friday in Westminster. I understand they had been researching and planning carefully for it.There's a wonderful thin blue line protecting us right now.

'hard right' have a massive funded well co ordinated SM presence.

In fact their physical numbers are very small as this little rally showed.

The couldn't even co ordinate the event between the different fascist cults present, and metaphorically and literally were walking round in circles, albeit with orange lodge bands. Vox pops with attendees revealed that they were angry about the vote failing and had wanted it to pass. They haven't got a clue what they want.

Yaxley Lennon's lost his squeaky little voice. All of the speakers looked like they bored the pants off those present.

There's a strong element of 'emperor's clothes' about 'hard right' threats.

They mainly just looked like plain ridiculous on Friday.

As they are.

1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 11:02

{Re what would cause less far right rioting...perhaps controversially I suspect No Deal would keep people too busy to form any kind of rebellion.}

There is an issue I see in that at the moment rioting is on a 'want to' level, some odd ideological basis.
With a 'No deal' and with real shortages then it becomes far more 'personal' in that fighting for food (Maslows heirarchy of needs)* starts to kick in. At that point it gets far more dangerous.
Remember a while back a 'fracas' over a build a bear workshop, pathetic, but highlights volatility in seemingly bland circumstances.

*150 years of marriage taught me something!

woman19 · 31/03/2019 11:03

Well done on the 6 million!
We're bigger than the population of many EU countries now. Smile

Langrish · 31/03/2019 11:04

But they’re still be members of the EU Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 11:04

We've seen yet again in the US that pandering to the far right only strengthens them

I remember a report showing they usually increase during Republican presidencies, because they are subject to fewer restrictions and can get some of their wishes onto the agenda

Langrish · 31/03/2019 11:05

They’ll

Littlespaces · 31/03/2019 11:06

Thanks TheMShip, really appreciated.

I love the cat shaped one too. Grin

Littlespaces · 31/03/2019 11:07

They are very good visual images showing why nobody can agree.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 11:07

I'm off to the gym not too, after a lovely Rhine walk, to 🏋🏽‍♀️

Happy Mothers Day, Westministender Mothers ! 💐 🥁 🍹

TiddleTaddleTat · 31/03/2019 11:08

It's remarkable when you hear previous PMs like John Major and Tony Blair interviewed about Brexit. They come across as so much more thoughtful and reasonable than more recent PMs. Shows the gaping vacuum for centrist politics at the moment.

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