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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

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Thread gallery
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woman19 · 30/03/2019 21:12

Thanks AwdBovril might bring/ schlepp my tomato plants in at bed time too.
Jealous that your spuds are in already. Smile (When did you put them in?)

I'm planting more flowers to mitigate this malarkey too....... Sunflowers today (we love sunflower seeds, does anyone have recipes for salting them?)

woman19 · 30/03/2019 21:19

I think Blair is often over rated even now

He won 3 terms. He was lucky, but he was really good at politics.

Can anyone help me on other Labour Landslides over the last 100 years?

I went to watch parliament in 2005. Prescott was doing Questions.

I will never forget the body language of the bowed, crestfallen creatures which were the tories in opposition, even then.

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:21

I think I regard this as good news

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/30/furious-tory-mps-tell-theresa-may-they-will-block-snap-election?__twitter_impression=true
Furious Tory MPs tell May: we’ll block snap Brexit election
Cabinet ministers join warning on poll as Amber Rudd leads bid to halt shift to the right

Conservative MPs from across the party are threatening to vote down any attempt by Theresa May to lead them into a snap election, warning it would split the Tories and exacerbate the Brexit crisis.

In a sign of the collapse in authority suffered by the prime minister, cabinet ministers are among those warning that there will be a serious campaign by Conservative MPs to vote against an election headed by May, a move she hinted at last week to break the Brexit deadlock.

The threat of an election immediately angered both pro-Brexit and pro-Remain MPs.

Rudd of course has 300 good reasons why its worth her fighting tooth and nail to prevent another GE.

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1tisILeClerc · 30/03/2019 21:22

Isn't it sunflower seeds you can 'toast' in a frying pan with tamara sauce? to make a gorgeous snack?

BercowsSilkTie · 30/03/2019 21:23

@woman19 I just roast them in olive oil and a good sprinkle of salt. Cool on kitchen paper to absorb the excess oil. They are great mixed with pumpkin seeds too

DGRossetti · 30/03/2019 21:26

Anyone catch Frankie Boyle

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0003my1/frankie-boyles-new-world-order-series-3-episode-1

Good as ever, but an interesting comment about Brexit being the first thing politicians have actually had to deliver when they are in power ...

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:26

MoS politics @ mos_politics
NEW MAIL ON SUNDAY / DELTAPOLL:

Next Tory leader...

Johnson 15
Javid 6
Govt 5
Hunt 4
Raab 2
Truss 1

Big victory for don’t know.

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woman19 · 30/03/2019 21:27

Ooh , great. Thank you LeClerc and Bercows looking forward to experimenting.

Brexshitfuuuuuuuck · 30/03/2019 21:27

Truss?

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:39

Similar % of UK voters think we'll get a good Brexit deal to the % of US voters who think the moon landings were faked:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/03/30/politics/poll-of-the-week-brexit/index.html?twitterr_impression=true

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:42

Still a high chance a GE would just produce another hung Parliament - and waste 5 weeks of any extension

Would all 27 of the other EU members think it worth the trouble ?

Britain Electss@britainelects*

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 35% (-1)
LAB: 35% (-)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
UKIP: 9% (-)
GRN: 5% (+1)

via
@OpiniumResearch
28 - 29 Mar
Chgs. w/ 20 Mar

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:42

Paul Brand @paulbranditv
NEW: Have spoken to a minister this evening who remained loyal to govt and voted against customs union last week, but who will switch to back one this week. "There will be massive support from the Conservative benches for a customs union on Monday", he predicts.

Would not surprise me. Kenneth Clarke is not a stupid man. He would not have put forward the idea without having sounded out his own benches thoroughly.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:46

Post-Brexit Bureaucracy: Rules of Origin

Civil service blog, good tech detail about issues they are trying to deal with re trade prep

https://ukcivilservant.wordpress.com/2016/10/30/post-brexit-bureaucracy-rules-of-origin/

It took many years of patient negotiation, led by the UK, to transform the EU’s tariff-free zone into a genuine Single Market free of regulatory barriers.

This blog explains why the post-Brexit reintroduction of Rules of Origin for UK imports and exports might cause problems, even if we achieve a zero-tariff agreement with the EU27.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:48

As a Tory ex-Chancellor, Clarke would also figure out the least damaging option for trade,
framed in a way that his party could accept

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:50

Im led to believe this is tomorrows Indy lead

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-second-referendum-eu-revoke-article-50-a8846146.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true
EU would delay Brexit again to let UK hold a second referendum
EU officials expect leaders to demand a justification from Theresa May for a long Article 50 extension

This isn't new. Detail is more interesting though.

One senior EU official said there were “three possible justifications” for a long extension emerging in member states’ thinking following their summit last week.

“One is if there is a general election. All of us speculate about what that changes, but we are a democracy and we respect democratic procedures so it would be,” the senior official said.

“A second referendum: that does not seem very likely but it also a democratic process that we would like to respect.

“And then the less defined one: if there is some sort of plan for a political process that can lead to, if not a political consensus, then at least a workable majority. That, and I should underline it, cannot involve any reopening of the withdrawal agreement.”

The senior official stressed that no final decision had been taken and that it would ultimately be up to leaders in the room on 10 April

However all these options also require legislation for euro elections to be passed by 12th April.

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icannotremember · 30/03/2019 21:52

Blair is a really skilled politician. Iraq and restrictions on civil liberties can't be forgotten, but at the same time you can't deny he was incredibly successful. I was 16 when he became PM and that was the first election night I stayed up until the early hours for; my mum was crying with joy to see the back of a Tory government. There are a lot of things I think Labour did for good, and I have definitely felt things getting harder, worse, more precarious, since they left government. No one is perfect. In some very important ways Blair was found wanting. But as a political operator he was very, very good.

Brexshitfuuuuuuuck · 30/03/2019 21:53

Would we need a Tory leadership contest before another election? Aren't they likely to go for a hard Brexiteer? Who would proceed to crush revoke and PV?

borntobequiet · 30/03/2019 21:55

The DUP would cave in the (guaranteed) face of another election. They know it would be curtains for them.

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:57

Well the Telegraph really doesn't fancy an election by the look of it. This is similar to the guardian one I posted earlier tonight.

Both remain and Brexiteer Tories will vote against a GE.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:00

Ditto The Mail.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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Random18 · 30/03/2019 22:01

*icannot I voted for the 1st time in 97 (I was 18)

I can remember the feeling that night. Coming from an area where the Tories were despised it was just so great to finally have a Labour govt.

At that time the Labour majority in my constituency was huge and alway had been - their vote has now been wiped out!

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:02

Guardian / observer (lead story is the guardian one upthread)

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:02

The Express is more worried about a customs union vote on Monday than a GE.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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Butterymuffin · 30/03/2019 22:03

Guardian also saying Tories have told May they will block an attempt to call an election. Rudd apparently is coordinating moderate Tories to act against the hard right ERG types.
Everyone but May sees an election as a disastrous idea.

borntobequiet · 30/03/2019 22:04

So what will she do...