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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
Mistigri · 30/03/2019 19:42

I don't really understand the corbynite hostilities here tbh, most of us here are quite left leaning though Labour's stance on Brexit and migration has driven me towards the centre and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Labour has aided, abetted and even encouraged the government in pushing for a hard Brexit because it made a strategic decision that it was better to court former UKIP voters in northern constituencies than pro-remain voters in safe southern constituencies. Hence the decision to throw migrants under the bus.

I'm a former Labour voter and a migrant and I am really quite bitter about this (if you haven't guessed).

JustAnotherPoster00 · 30/03/2019 19:44

I hope you dont think I've been hostile Misti, I'd be devastated if you thought I had

67chevvyimpala · 30/03/2019 19:49

He is the leader of the party fgs

mathanxiety · 30/03/2019 19:55

RTB
I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum.

Direct Rule means the DUP returns to being the small fish in the big pond. This could also mean the end of the grip of fundamentalism on NI law and society.

The donation money has to be going somewhere else. I suspect that Business in NI (capital B) has taken stock of the nuts and bolts of Brexit far more carefully than the DUP have, and also that they have taken note of Ireland's realism and diplomatic success (and continuing ability to strike trade deals outside the EU boosting agriculture and food processing industries) from the start of the Brexit process.

I have a feeling that many a scale has fallen from many an eye in NI, and that a Rubicon has been crossed, with alternative vistas of the future opening up that may include a 32 county state in Ireland.

The willingness of the DUP to throw the lives and livelihoods of ordinary people under the bus for the sake of ideology (and even because it was too tempting to play power broker in Westminster) won't be forgotten by moderate Unionists, small farmers, people running family businesses, little shopkeepers, employees of food processors, trucking firms, etc in NI.

bellinisurge · 30/03/2019 20:01

"Should he have launched off the stage at them? He doesnt look like much of a fighter"

He could have asked them to stop. He could have called security. He could have walked up to them and said "No, this is not Labour ". He just smiled beautifically . Presumably out of a nervous inability to actually do anything. Rather than approval.

Lonelycrab · 30/03/2019 20:05

Bigchoc: spot on with Corbyn. Fucking waste of space as far as I’m concerned, I’ve voted labour many times in my life but he’s got nothing to offer when we need it most.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 20:05

Fisticuffs should never be required of a leader
but that's not the way one usually stands up to anti-semitism, misogyny and other aspects of creeping fascism

Instead, get on the microphone, tell them to stop and leave the meeting immediately
If need be, call security, or the police if these anti-semites turn violent

Littlespaces · 30/03/2019 20:07

I wish the land of Wessex could join the EU. Sad

I'm not looking forward to what happens when the real effects of Brexit come to pass.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 20:07

Standing by without comment, while colleagues make anti-semitic attacks,
is at least condoning, if not approval

JustAnotherPoster00 · 30/03/2019 20:09

Definitely handled the situation badly I agree and he really is divisive af, but on a personal note I really did and still do believe in the 2017 manifesto, but just to make it clear I never have and never will think the guy is perfect but I do thank him for bringing the party back towards the left

67chevvyimpala · 30/03/2019 20:14

Out of interest, just, how old are you? Are you a woman?

Because I'm a 46 year old woman, former labour member who will NEVER vote labour again whilst that moron is leader.

And there are LOTS of us.

As I pointed out to John McDonnell in the mn webchat, woke leftie students won't won labour a GE.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 30/03/2019 20:17

47 this year and also a woman

1tisILeClerc · 30/03/2019 20:19

Older than both of you and wish I was a cat!

67chevvyimpala · 30/03/2019 20:27

Staggers me how women can worship at the alter of the blessed corbyn.

Women s a sex don't exist, you know? According to the labour party (and the greens, and the lib dems
...)

Once we have birthed the next generation of comrades we cease to exist it would seem.

Time for centrist politics in the UK.

When did far right OR far left politicd ever precede anything decent and good??

TatianaLarina · 30/03/2019 20:30

I have a feeling that many a scale has fallen from many an eye in NI

Great post. I think the DUP have come under concerted pressure from business and farming. Ironically Arlene originally favoured a soft Brexit, as per the letter she wrote with Martin McGuinness.

The scales seem to have fallen from the DUP’s eyes too wrt the Tories and May in particular. The DUP always felt like provincial cousins dazzled by the invite to the top table in the big smoke. Now the glamour has worn off.

woman19 · 30/03/2019 20:31

3 term Labour government in Britain starting in 1997, felt like we were living in the land of milk and honey, relative to what had gone before.

Blair was and is a phenomenal politician; he and his stunning cabinet terrified the tories for nearly 13 years and 3 terms, quite rightly. They changed britain, but not enough, from what those awful predecessors did.

Sounds to me like they ( I include the SWP/ LD/ Tories in this) are still scared of him. A middle ground, presentable socialist labour leader who rectified at least some of the inequities in this nutty island would be their nightmare now too.

9/11 caused mucho loss of marbles to many who had had a blessed life in Europe and America up till then. Blair fell victim to that, but parliament and tories voted for the Iraq war. Did you take part in any actions against that war BCF?

Corbyn's typical of the mediocre white men many of us have had to endure in positions of power.

Pity/ tragedy that it's now that he is in power.

But things can change. Smile

Littlespaces · 30/03/2019 20:43

How do you counter someone who truly believes that WTO trade will be magnificent? Help me please.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 30/03/2019 20:44

How do you counter someone who truly believes that WTO trade will be magnificent? Help me please.

Have a look on the WHO website to see if theyve made a cure for stupidity yet Grin

AwdBovril · 30/03/2019 20:52

Woman19 I suspect you're rather further south than me. I have to bring my tomato plants in every night, as we are still having the occasional frost. My yard is looking rather promising though, & I got some potatoes in today.

I keep stress-eating my stashed chocolate. Fecking politicians.

borntobequiet · 30/03/2019 20:59

Petition is just under 5 995 000...

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:04

woman I opposed and protested against the Iraq war from the beginning,
because I knew it would only increase religious extremism in the region.
Also because revenge is a poor reason for starting a war.

Much influenced, btw, by my Tory mum, whose Arab heritage enabled her to see what a disaster Western invasion would bring
I also expected a new Iraq regime of the majority Shia would link up in a dangerous alliance with the Shiite Iran
either of us
We both expected disaster, but not the total destabilisation of the whole region and the power vacuum that let in IS

For the same reason, I oppose the West's war against Assad.
Like Saddam, he is a brutal dictator, but weakening him let in far worse

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 21:04

Corbyn's typical of the mediocre white men many of us have had to endure in positions of power.

Oh god yes.

I think mediocre is a flattering description too. He's just made a career out of being difficult. A man vastly out of his depth in a role which requires anything of real substance and falls outside what's he personally is interested in. If it's not his pet project he's simply disinterested. And by god is he a product of his era when it comes to sexism.

The irony is, there are many policies Labour had that aren't awful. And then they have so that are so poorly thought I do not know where to begin.

FWIW, I think Blair is often over rated even now. He just managed to get on the first wave of slick political PR in this country. And the opposition leader during his tenure were the charismatic William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard.

Corbyn was highly regarded for his integrity. I just think that's it complete tatters now and I suspect it was only ever a product of little scrutiny and an attitude that he was just a little eccentric and couldn't really do a lot of harm on the back benches.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:05

The West should help and protect refugees, but NOT try to regime change

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:06

I've never understood why so many people thought Corbyn has integrity.
He didn't in his early career, before he learned to put on more of a facade and before he had minders.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 21:09

I'm nearly 63
imo politicans this Millenium don't seem to learn from history
So looks like we may have to repeat some of the worst bits

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