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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

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Thread gallery
48
woman19 · 30/03/2019 22:06

my mum was crying with joy to see the back of a Tory government
It was a lovely day, literally and metaphorically, when we got our country back.

Landslide lovely.

Both remain and Brexiteer Tories will vote against a GE.
They've lost the brexit and through the brexit

They know it.

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:07

I swear The Mirror is simply from an alternative universe to the rest of us atm. Brexit never makes the cover!!! I'm guessing as a selling point this appeals to many. Very much in line with Corbyns approach, but still utterly bizarre.

I can sit at home with the worrying news that Mick is very sick and might not live to see his kids all grow up, rather than ponder the fate of millions.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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CosmicVagina · 30/03/2019 22:12

I have to make a disclaimer!

On a day trip playing tourist I went to Parliament on Friday not knowing there was a Leave rally. If you saw a chubby couple with a green pram and gorgeous baby in the background we are remainers!
Grin

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:12

www.rte.ie/amp/1039471/?__twitter_impression=true
Brexit: Home truths - no deal and the Irish border

Lengthy but important piece from Tony Connelly RTE.

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RedToothBrush · 30/03/2019 22:23

Well this is fun.

The Cabinet is set to collapse apparently.

The leave cabinet have said they will walk if May accepts a customs union. That's with 170 Tories in total. They want no deal.

But the other half if the Cabinet say they will walk if its no deal and we must leave the EU by 22nd May and not have EP elections.

Which all sounds rather fun at the same time as both Remainers and Brexiteers saying they will not allow another GE and will block it.

However the absolute gem in the Sunday Times cover is something that will utterly delight the Queen.

2 constitutional experts have said that no 10 has the right to ask the Queen to refuse to give royal absent to any bill tabled and passed by backbenchers. The Queen will not want to be involved. In any way.

I can image the chat between May and the Queen on Wednesday...

What happens if either half of the cabinet walks? Fuck knows. Apart from it being difficult to see anything but an irreconcilable split in the party.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
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wherearemychickens · 30/03/2019 22:31

Well, that would be an interesting development, in the sense of 'may you live in interesting times'.

TatianaLarina · 30/03/2019 22:35

154 Tories voted for No Deal, so either 16 have changed their mind or they are grandstanding.

May is just threatening GE to try to get Parl to vote for her deal with losing their jobs. She was warned by Tory officials it could be carnage.

40 Tory seats have a margin of 5% or smaller, Labour is in second place in 35 of those.

20 Tory seats have a margin of less than 2.5%, Labour is in second place in 17 of those.

9 Tory MPs won last year majority smaller than 1%.

Violetparis · 30/03/2019 22:35

Delta poll has

LAB 41 % (+5%)
CON 36 % (-7%)
LDEM 7% (+1%)
UKIP 7% (+2%)

TheABC · 30/03/2019 22:36

The sweet sound of chickens coming home to roost. This is what May hoped to avoid all along.

Who knows what Monday will bring?

TatianaLarina · 30/03/2019 22:36

^^in 2017

woman19 · 30/03/2019 22:37

Aha. Thanks tatiana and Violet how reliable is Delta polls? (looks nice though)

Violetparis · 30/03/2019 22:40

Delta Poll with Change UK TIG

LAB 35% (-1%)
CON 32% (-11%)
CUK 9% (+9%)
LDEM 7% (+1%)

Tories in meltdown, massive move to Tiggers.

woman19 · 30/03/2019 22:42

Tasty Cuks Smile

Violetparis · 30/03/2019 22:45

woman19 not sure how reliable Delta polls are, it was carried out for the Mail on Sunday so there may be ulterior motives.

howabout · 30/03/2019 22:45

If the polling is correct then Labour would be mad to "compromise" on WA plus CU and end up equally culpable. Don't see any movement from IV next week.

woman19 · 30/03/2019 22:47

Thank you violet.

Violetparis · 30/03/2019 22:51

Did wonder if the poll could have been designed to make the hardline Tory Brexiteers more likely to vote for the WA in order to avoid a possible Corbyn victory in an election. No idea now as it sounds from other posts that both sides of the Tory party want to avoid an election. Really enjoying the thought of the self destruction of the Tory Party Smile.

howabout · 30/03/2019 22:55

Doesn't matter now how many Tories vote for the WA as it doesn't get through without the DUP and I wonder if the few Labour backers would switch back also.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 22:57

Polls varying a lot.
Opinium Research have Tory & Labour exactly equal

CON: 35% (-1)
LAB: 35% (-)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
UKIP: 9% (-)
GRN: 5% (+1)

@OpiniumResearch
Fieldwork 28 - 29 Mar
Chgs. w/ 20 Mar

DangermousesSidekick · 30/03/2019 22:58

If we end up with Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg as prime minister then we'll know Old Corruption is back and ruling the country indeed. I really can't take Britain seriously any more. It's become a tinpot 3rd world totalitarian state. It's not even a good laughing stock with its inequalities and child poverty.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/03/2019 23:02

For Labour, what matters is what their suppoters think, not the whole electorate, which includes people who'd never vote for them

Will Remainers - 70% of Labour voters - feel betrayed and vote for other parties ?

Delta Poll

Fieldwork , 28 - 30 Mar, All voters

On a second EU referendum:

Support: 40%
Oppose: 38%
....

On revoking Article 50:

Support: 41%
Oppose: 40%
.....

On a no deal Brexit:

Support: 38%
Oppose: 45%

Epanoui · 30/03/2019 23:03

To be honest what scares me more about Brexit now is the rising fury of the growing hard right. If we don’t leave the EU, that will be the basis for it. If we leave but BRINO, the narrative will be the betrayal. If we leave with no deal they’ll feel that they’ve been proven right and more empowered.

I am not sure how it is possible to avoid the fury of the far right. And it scares me too.

There are a few options for what can happen next.

  1. No deal. We crash out. Food and medicine shortages, dramatically shrinking economy, job losses, any remaining manufacturing such as car companies leave the UK. Result - far right anger as they did not get what they were told they'd get, everything has gone to shit and they are angry that the powers that be did Brexit wrong and robbed them of their sunlit uplands and unicorns etc.

  2. Softer Brexit, customs union or something. Result - far right anger as robbed of the Brexit they wanted.

  3. BINO involving some kind of Norway thing. Result - far right anger as robbed of the Brexit they wanted.

  4. Long extension to Article 50 for some plan or other to be carried out. Result - far right anger because people are trying to take Brexit away from them.

  5. PV in some form. Result - far right anger as we already had the vote and they won etc. This anger will exist regardless of the outcome to some extent.

  6. Remain/revoke. Result - far right anger as no Brexit at all and definitely not what they wanted.

I literally cannot see an outcome which doesn't result in the rise of the far right, some civil unrest, and some uncomfortable times ahead politically. I think we are infor a very bumpy ride, no matter what happens.

Violetparis · 30/03/2019 23:04

I know polls vary and are unreliable but seeing the Delta one has cheered me up tonight Smile.

woman19 · 30/03/2019 23:05

I am not sure how it is possible to avoid the fury of the far right. And it scares me too

I'm bored and embarrassed by them. I suspect most British people are too.

Sostenueto · 30/03/2019 23:06

Corbyn is a pacifist and unfortunately that means he's not much cop in confrontations which in turn is not a lot of cop in an environment like HoC especially with Tories as government. And unfortunately is no good as a leader of an opposition. But, he is a man of principles and you don't see him make spiteful personal attacks on his opponents unlike TM and Loathsome.

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