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Brexit

Westminstenders: Arse about Face

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2019 21:02

Everything about Brexit seems to have been done wrongly.

Setting red lines to rule out a compromise

The attempt to use executive power to trigger A50, that resulted in a court case

Triggering A50 before knowing what the UK wanted

Agreeing to the backstop before any Tory MP understood the GFA

Appointing a Brexit minister before checking he understood where Dover was.

May going on about NI and pissing off the DUP before they were just about to climb down.

Having a Meaningless Vote repeatedly with a gun to head.

Contempt of Parliament and just general fucking up.

Tonight, 3 days before we were due to leave the HoC finally sat down to decide what Brexit outcomes they thought would be a good idea - more than 2years after that should have happened.

And we now we are told the meaningful vote might be may even more meaningless by being wrapped up in the illusive Withdrawal Agreement Implimentation Bill.

Farce doesn't even cover it.

Anyway Indicative Vote results incoming in approx 15 mins.

OP posts:
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Icantreachthepretzels · 28/03/2019 11:51

I'm miles behind on the thread - but I've just seen my mp voted for no deal and the unicorn one that came after it and against everything else. This is the email I've written to him (but not sent):

^I have just seen your record on how you voted last night in the indicative votes. Against everything that could possibly move us forward, and then for no deal and the impossibility that was contingent preferential arrangements. It is too late in the day to be voting for wishes and dreams that the EU will not grant - and it was deeply irresponsible to vote for motion 7 at this point in the crisis that you helped to create. However it is beyond appalling - it is disgusting disgraceful and downright shameful that you voted for no deal. The fact that your constituents are remainers notwithstanding (though with your tiny little majority and the fact that your government is so unstable - that might be a thought you wanted to remember) the health minister has told the government that in the event of no deal he cannot guarantee that people will not die. I will not be forgetting that you actively chose to vote for the possible deaths of your most vulnerable constituents, and the unemployment, poverty and misery of the rest of them. And come election day I will be making sure all my neighbours are also aware of how little their lives and livelihoods mean to you.

This brexit mess is not going to go away and one day the people who helped create it will be held accountable. After your voting last night, I very much look forward to the day when it is you being held accountable at the inevitable enquiry.^

Can it be misconstrued as threatening? Is it too histrionic? (I've not bothered to address him and I've signed my name but not signed it off wit a 'yours - anything' because he doesn't deserve the respect of civil markers of communication - he just voted to kill his most vulnerable constituents!)

DGRossetti · 28/03/2019 11:52

Genuine question: does the EU and its workings, feature in the UK state education system nowadays?

Why would it ? The UK system doesn't really feature at all - as demonstrated by the ignorance about how parliament works.

Songsofexperience · 28/03/2019 11:53

@marsha
@BCF

No I don't prefer no deal at all. My point is that the only way to avoid limbo or what think of as purgatory is to revoke or have a 2nd ref with remain as an option (and criss fingers and toes it wins)
I don't like the WA agreement because it doesn't settle anything and so we have zero certainty down the line.

CordeliaEarhart · 28/03/2019 11:53

icannotremember perhaps the "leaders" of the main parties should actually, um, I dunno, lead. It is their responsibility to explain to the electorate that EP elections are so that they can continue to be democratically represented in Brussels until Brexit happens.

MarshaBradyo · 28/03/2019 11:54

Thanks Songs me too

Mistigri · 28/03/2019 11:55

Pretzels I think I would tone it down tbh. Keep it factual. You want it to be read, so take out any sentence that would cause you to bin it without reading it if it were sent to you.

Mistigri · 28/03/2019 11:57

I hope there are EP elections. I think there is a very good chance that substantially all of the electors at the march will vote, as will many of the people who signed the petition. I think the vote could be significantly distorted in favour of pro EU parties due to the high political engagement and higher propensity to vote among remainers.

woodpigeons · 28/03/2019 11:59

I remember when Major took over from Thatcher and people thought he was ineffective and inconsequential.
I really don’t think we’d be in this mess if either of the two main parties had a leader of his calibre.
Joseph de Maistre wrote in 1811 that people get the government they deserve.
So if the people are responsible for the self-serving, populist MPs we’ve had recently, and I don’t just mean May, Corbyn and Boris et al as its been going on for longer than that, how can change be affected ?

Arborea · 28/03/2019 12:00

Pretzels, I've just emailed my MP whom I think followed the Labour whip (as always!) - I tried to be measured and only really took him to task about abstaining on Revoke, pointing out that in the circumstances it's the only sensible way to move forward. I would have found it hard to be civil if my MP was a hardline ERG type!

Can I also suggest that people check out @BercowSweary on twitter? Helped raise a smile for me this morning when it's hard to find much in the news to be cheerful about.

Pegsinarow · 28/03/2019 12:02

I'd argue all it's done is increase the gulf between those that chose to educate themselves (this thread) and those that are carrying on as they always have - copy of the Sun/Express/Mirror in one hand, their favourite facebook sites in the other, and the state broadcaster in the background. There's a reason these people weren't really politically engaged, and it's nothing to do with the availability of information.

I hear what you are saying Rossetti and agree in part, except that doesn't describe my Leaver relations (described in pp) at all. None of them read the red tops, only one of them has a Facebook account, and they are retiring or recently retired from their jobs as scientists (unbelievably!), engineers, lecturers, retired naval officers (the latter probably more understandable). They all have degrees and most second degrees. It's highly depressing.

MargoLovebutter · 28/03/2019 12:04

Rossetti we don't have a tradition of political engagement in the UK. Lots of people still harbour a belief, even if they don't articulate it, that their "betters" know more about this stuff than they do and quite often their "betters" like things shrouded in mystery or absurdly complicated terminology to keep it exactly that way.

Political engagement in the past has usually been 'cause' related (suffrage, desperate unemployment - 1930s, closing down traditional industries - mid 1980s, poll tax - 1990s and so on) rather than something that people are regularly involved with.

It is often easier to remain ignorant than engage in a meaningful way!

DGRossetti · 28/03/2019 12:04

I think there is a very good chance that substantially all of the electors at the march will vote, as will many of the people who signed the petition. I think the vote could be significantly distorted in favour of pro EU parties due to the high political engagement and higher propensity to vote among remainers.

I still stand by what I said that for all the bluster, the UKIP boost is spent. People who traditionally have been politically unengaged woke up, had a vote, and then quietly slipped away - never to get involved again. I'm pretty certain UKIP and their fellow travellers have realised this and are aware that with each passing day, the drip drip of citizens who remained engaged will slowly wash away the chalk picture (unlikely to be much writing ....) the "forgotten" left behind.

There's also a point of view - won't be popular, but that's never been a worry - where some might say "well, we asked the people what they wanted, and it turns out they are fucking idiots. We won't be doing that again anytime soon ....".

If politics is a game, it should be a league game, not a knockout. As we've seen, Leave "won" a fluke result. It's hardly representative of their overall performance.

DGRossetti · 28/03/2019 12:05

Again, Dilbert seems to speak to me ...

Westminstenders: Arse about Face
BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2019 12:06

How Britain got it so wrong on Brexit

The EU had been preparing for Leave (or Remain) for many months before the ref.
The UK hadn't

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/amp/

It would be the first of many battles the EU declared, and the first of many it would win,
as it stuck to the strategies it laid out in the earliest days of the Brexit process.

Over the 33 months since the referendum, British officials would stage a series of unsuccessful stands, trying to dislodge the EU from its chosen course before grudgingly -and bitterly -acquiescing amid howls of pain in Westminster.

prettybird · 28/03/2019 12:07

MV3 (or something like it Confused)being brought back (somehow) tomorrow - supposedly complying with the Speaker's guidance.

So that's the Scottish MPs not doing their surgeries tomorrow Wink

prettybird · 28/03/2019 12:08

Oops - meant to say the Scottish MPs et al Blush

Lots of MPs do surgeries on Fridays.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2019 12:09

Intelligent, educated people are just as likely to make the wrong decisions as anyone else,
when their deepest emotions are invoved,
such as when the issue is related to their belief system, whether political or religious

DGRossetti · 28/03/2019 12:09

Whole article ...

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

politics.co.uk
The obscene moral spectacle of Theresa May's resignation
Ian Dunt
5-7 minutes
May leaves parliament after telling her MPs she will not remain in post for the next phase of Brexit negotiations this evening May leaves parliament after telling her MPs she will not remain in post for the next phase of Brexit negotiations this evening
May leaves parliament after telling her MPs she will not remain in post for the next phase of Brexit negotiations this evening

What an abominable circus. It's hard to know where the greater blame should be put. On the prime minister who has made her own eradication a bribe to force through the product of her failure? Or the great defenders of British sovereignty who have suddenly decided none of their principles mean anything if there is a chance to finish off a political rival?

These figures have spent the last two and a half years saying that a second referendum could not be allowed because it would damage trust in the British political system. But somehow they are unable to comprehend that their cosmic level of hypocrisy might do the same thing to anyone unlucky enough to observe it.

What a grotesque Faustian pact they have concocted. In the early evening, Theresa May walked into a committee room in parliament and indicated to her parliamentary party that she would quit if they backed her deal. Journalists and MPs reacted with bewildering innocence to all this. The widespread presumption - laughable when you see it written down in black and white - was that it was true. In fact, it seemed perfectly in line with her usual tactic of saying whatever gets her through the day, then dealing with the consequences of it further down the line. One thing you can always rely on with May is that if there is wriggle room, she will make good use of it. And there was plenty of wriggle room in the vague assurances she offered the parliamentary Conservative party this evening.

But put that to one side. Let's say it is true. Consider for a moment how disreputable this is. Any deal which requires the resignation of its author in order to get is passed is by default not worth supporting. And any political culture which would require the author of a deal to step down in order for MPs to back it is plainly in a state of advanced decay.

What followed was a masterclass in hypocrisy so severe that it was startling even in this golden age of consequence-free political lying. Boris Johnson, who not so long ago said May's deal "strapped a suicide vest around the UK" and turned it into a "vassal state", suddenly decided he supported it. Astonishing. Jacob Rees Mogg, who previously said the deal turned the UK into "a slave state" and that it constituted the "greatest vassalage since King John", also decided he was prepared to back it. Extraordinary. And now here they were, actively promoting our own national slavery on the basis that the prime minister might possibly step down at some unspecified point in the future.

It is the Nazi-Soviet pact of the Brexit debate: a deal so cynical it contains its own gravitational field. May is prepared to offer her resignation in exchange for the deal, on the basis that if it passes she probably won't have to see it through. The Brexit headbangers are prepared to support the deal in exchange for her resignation, on the basis that they will tear up the deal once she is gone. They are shaking hands with knives held behind their back.

And yet here we all are, locked into their swirling psychological horror story, trapped in this dreadful room with them, our national fate dependant on what these cynical, self-interested, mendacious, emotionally incontinent, ideologically deranged buffoons happen to decide at any given moment. Not one person in this rabble believes a single thing they are saying. It is a godawful mixture of religious zeal, personal ambition and tribal lunacy.

And then there is the real hypocrisy, the one that casts a shadow over this whole despairing spectacle: That it is happening out of terror of parliament doing the very thing Brexiters said they wanted it to. The sudden shift from the ERG came in response to the successful amendment last Monday giving MPs control of the Commons timetable. Since then, MPs have started exploring options in a way that was much calmer, intellectually honest, and free from the constant accusatory refrains about the 'will of the people'. Their stranglehold over Britain's elected representatives was starting to soften and they panicked.

Suddenly all their childish blather about slave states and suicide vests disappeared. All the dress-up warrior language was gone. Once alternatives emerged, they sobered up awful quick. But why? The indicative votes represented the fabled parliamentary sovereignty which they spent the referendum insisting the country had lost. They wanted our own parliament to pass our own laws. And yet when it started to do so, they preferred vassalage.

If any good can come from this - and it is frankly unclear if it can - it will be that someone young is watching it and finding it so singularly awful that they resolve to do things better in future.

MargoLovebutter · 28/03/2019 12:12

Ah, Ian Dunt saying what I was - just so much better than me!!!! Grin That's a great article.

ElenadeClermont · 28/03/2019 12:13

Before June 2016, DS's primary school had an EU day each Autumn talking about the EU and learning about other EU nations. They always received little booklets and flags.
I do not think they did it since.

HazardGhost · 28/03/2019 12:13

pretzels I've sent emails of a simular tone but my MP has never replied in the space of two years to polite ones so I don't care and just say exactly what i want now.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2019 12:13

Carl Dinnen@carldinnen (ITV News)

NEW I’m told the Speaker has indicated to the Attorney General that there is a way to bring back the Meaningful Vote tomorrow
and Geoffrey Cox is relaying that to Number 10.

The numbers, of course, are a different matter.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2019 12:17

There's a dilemma for Tory Remainers, Labour (and the DUP) now.

If they don't vote for the deal and we no deal and the ERG largely do vote for the deal, guess who gets the blame for no deal....

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2019 12:23

John Rentoul@JohnRentoul

So she needs 30+1 Labour MPs if she can get the DUP

< NOPE, so she needs 40+1 Labour MPs >

.....
My arithmetic working here < see attached image >
.......
Dan Sabbaghh@dansabbagh* (Guardian)

Boris switched to back the deal at ERG but a source adds "No way that deal is getting out the room".
Baker spoke against the deal, received a standing ovation, and was hugged by colleagues.

Early estimates 30 still against the deal

Westminstenders: Arse about Face
woodpigeons · 28/03/2019 12:26

Ian Dunt is also saying what I would have said if I had his eloquence.
The best we can hope for is to get out of this in the least harmful way for the country and its people and then, as he said, hope that lessons will be learned so that nothing like this will ever happen again.
I’m feeling sadly resigned.

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