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Brexit

Westminstenders: Pragmatism versus Purity

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2019 10:39

There is one question for the HoC in the next week and that's will you persue pragmatism or purity?

May looks as if she is being sidelined after a backbench withdrawal of support, the DUPs withdrawal of support and an omminous silence eminenating from the Cabinet.

Her speech on Thursday where she pitted the people against parliament has been her last mistake. She's now a danger to the country's stability and the safety of MPs.

The priority for the week is to pass the SI to change the UK exit date from 29th March to the EU's new terms.

After that, with May's deal stuffed due to lack of support and a Bercow ruling it looks like we are facing some sort of indicative free vote. This seems to be being supported by ministers in government regardless of leave or remain.

The prospect of a Tory Leader Election contest looms. It remains to seen if that can happen in the next three weeks with so much else at stake. But this is the Tory party.

The penny seems to be finally dropping about the reality of leaving the EU and how we leave the EU. A week before we were due to go. The incompetence of Parliament is laid bare in all its glorious full scale.

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TalkinPaece · 25/03/2019 12:21

I may have to hide for a day or two as DH has to do an event in a VERY pro Brexit area for a pro Brexit audience and he is struggling to manage his anger when he reads over my shoulder.

But it was lovely in the crowd on Saturday - almost like being back in the happy Britain during the 2012 Olympics. Sad

Sostenueto · 25/03/2019 12:21

Don't know horse sky news said it about 10 minutes ago. Also something about something from this morning being g chucked out by cabinet. Just turned TV on when it was being announced.

DGRossetti · 25/03/2019 12:23

Unless I have missed something, the HoL "initiative" reminds me of a time when a clients Disaster Recovery Document was kept onsite in a safe. The only time it was needed was when there was a murder across the road and the police blocked access to the building off ....

DGRossetti · 25/03/2019 12:25

Whole article

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/03/blaming-theresa-may-and-eu-delusional-brexit-defeating-itself

newstatesman.com
Blaming Theresa May and the EU is delusional — Brexit is defeating itself
By George Eaton Follow @@georgeeaton
5-6 minutes

In her 2002 “nasty party” speech to the Conservative conference, Theresa May declared of the Tories: “Twice we went to the country unchanged, unrepentant, just plain unattractive. And twice we got slaughtered.”

Twice Theresa May went to the House of Commons with an unchanged and unattractive deal. And twice she got slaughtered.

Last night’s defeat was not as emphatic as that two months ago (when May lost by a record 230 votes) but it remained the fourth-biggest defeat in House of Commons history. Almost three years after the UK voted to leave the EU, and a mere fortnight before its current departure date (29 March), Britain’s fate remains farcically uncertain.

For the Brexiteers, May is the unambiguous culprit. Boris Johnson has denounced the Prime Minister’s “total surrender” to Brussels. Even Nick Timothy, May’s former chief of staff and fiercely loyal ally, has accused her of a “capitulation” and of never believing Brexit could “be a success”.

All of this merely distracts from where the blame truly lies: with the Brexiteers themselves. The problem is not that May has failed to deliver on the Leave campaign’s promises — the problem is that no prime minister could have done so. In 2016, the Brexiteers vowed to end free movement, retain the economics benefits of EU membership, withdraw the UK from the customs union and avoid a hard Irish border — aims that were inherently irreconcilable.

May has played a bad hand badly — she triggered Article 50 recklessly early, squandered her parliamentary majority in an unnecessary election and carelessly alienated EU leaders and Remain MPs — but a bad hand it always was. From the moment that she reaffirmed Leave’s pledge to avoid a hard Irish border, a softer Brexit became inevitable. None of the alleged “technological” solutions offered by Leavers have ever been credible. The dream of “Empire 2.0” — a buccaneering Britannia that strikes trade deals with the “Anglosphere” — has been thwarted by the legacy of Empire 1.0: the Irish border.

The Leavers’ true quarrel is not with May but with reality. On 11 July 2016, David Davis, the former Brexit secretary, wrote that within two years the UK could “negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU”. On 20 July 2017, Liam Fox, the International Trade Secretary, declared that a new British trade deal with the EU should be “one of the easiest in human history”.

Such hopes were always delusional. The UK never held “the best cards” in the negotiations. The threat of “no deal” — a supposed masterstroke — was never credible. As the EU well knows, it is Britain that has the most to lose from this outcome (an estimated loss of 8 per cent of GDP compared to the EU’s 1.5 per cent). Again, the Brexiteers chide May for failing to adequately “prepare” for no deal. But the notion that the UK could ever successfully manage the upheaval that would result — punitive tariffs, medical shortages, grounded flights, chaos at ports and on roads — is fantastical.

Article 50 was triggered in March 2017 before the cabinet had even reached agreement on the UK’s negotiating aims. Ever since, the EU has been able to exploit internecine warfare on the British side as the clock runs down. But the problem has never merely been one of time but of substance. Undeliverable promises were always undeliverable.

Brexiteers now lament that May’s proposed deal is worse even than EU membership – but the delusion was to believe that it could ever be superior. A soft Brexit would sacrifice political sovereignty — with the UK becoming a rule-taker, rather than a rule-maker — while a hard Brexit would sacrifice economic prosperity.

Faced with this choice, the UK has been routinely accused of wishing to “have its cake and eat it”. The irony is that it was already doing so. Britain enjoyed formal opt-outs from the euro (the only member state other than Denmark to do so) and the borderless Schengen Zone, and a £4.9bn budget rebate.

The UK has now swapped this privileged berth for the enfeebling purgatory of Brexitdom. Far from “taking back control”, it is transferring it to the EU. Any extension to Article 50 requires the approval of all 27 other member states, reducing the UK to the status of a vassal.

Far more than any Europhile Remainer ever did, Brexit has demonstrated the purpose of EU membership. But the Leavers, who self-imploded when they had the chance to take power in 2016, will maintain that the problem is the leader, not the project. To the outside world, however, it is ever more apparent that the country they seek to govern does not exist.

wheresmymojo · 25/03/2019 12:28

Live from HoC on Brexity matters starts @ 3.30pm

At the moment it's just showing Select Committee on health screening for adults from last Wednesday (not hugely interesting)

I've started having Parliament Live on all day in the background while I WFH because I don't trust the MSM to report anything without bias

wheresmymojo · 25/03/2019 12:30

Oh...I've just seen PP about statement from TM in half an hour Confused

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:31

And Trump can fuck off.

Songsofexperience · 25/03/2019 12:34

From Guardian politics live update:

Boris Johnson suggests May could get Brexiters to back her deal by promising to stand down

EXACTLY what we've been saying. If true, we'll really spend 40 years in the desert.

prettybird · 25/03/2019 12:34

While we are recommending history TV programmes, I'd highly recommend "Nae Pasaran" ("They Shall Not Pass") about the workers in East Kilbride Rolls Royce factory (the only place in the world that serviced the Rolls Royce engines that Hawker Hunter jet fighters used) that "blacked" 8 engines (and ensured that no more came) that had arrived from Chile at the time of the Pinochet Junta, so stop them being used against the population. It talked of why they did it, that 4 engines "disappeared" Hmm and then talked with members of the Air Force in Chile and some of the political prisoners whose lives had potentially been impacted by their actions.

It's really moving and shows how small actions can make a difference Smile (although the changes that Thatcher made to TU legislation would make it difficult if not impossible for such action to take place now Sad).

It's also quite salutary about how easily a military coup can happen and fascism take hold Sad

I think it's only available on iPlayer until Wednesday though.

phpolly · 25/03/2019 12:36

thanks anyway DG. Feeling a bit pessimistic and deflated today following the march Saturday and the (I guess delusional) glimmer of hope it gave me

Cherrypi · 25/03/2019 12:38

Tony Blair said only 2% chance of no deal on remaniacs podcast. Some really interesting points on how to run the next campaign.

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:39

Did Tony Blair explain why Cherry ?

BiglyBadgers · 25/03/2019 12:41

While we are recommending history TV programmes,

Can I recommend a podcast for the serious history lovers? The Hardcore History ones are just amazing. They go on for hours and hours in ridiculous detail but they are very accessible and easy to listen to. Dan Carlin is a bit of a hero in my view. Plus he has a lovely voice.
www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

Horehound · 25/03/2019 12:41

Doesn't look like she will be giving a statement soon. Says she's meeting with Jeremy cuntbyn and then statements in Hoc at 3.30

Cherrypi · 25/03/2019 12:44

Something about grown ups stepping in and taking over.

Runningintothesunset · 25/03/2019 12:45

Why are they voting so late tonight? Seems another why of adding further physical strain by adding yet more sleep deprivation onto everyone involved

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:48

God scary interview with Ian Blackford on Sky. Talking about his meeting with government officials about no deal. He can't say anything. Adam Boulton saying that Ian Blackford was obviously "pretty shaken up" by what he was told.

Horehound · 25/03/2019 12:50

Oh i like ian blackfors. He always seems pretty sensible and realistic.

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:50

Thanks Cherry

Littlespaces · 25/03/2019 12:51

I guess they are trying to scare MP's into voting for the WA.

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:51

Exactly Hore

Sostenueto · 25/03/2019 12:51

Arleeeeene now being summoned to no 10. Apparently lK has tweeted TM wants to present WA tomorrow.

DarlingNikita · 25/03/2019 12:52

Thanks Red.

Has there been a statement?

tobee · 25/03/2019 12:53

I take that on board too Little

PinkieTuscadero · 25/03/2019 12:53

.