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Brexit

Westminstenders: Pragmatism versus Purity

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2019 10:39

There is one question for the HoC in the next week and that's will you persue pragmatism or purity?

May looks as if she is being sidelined after a backbench withdrawal of support, the DUPs withdrawal of support and an omminous silence eminenating from the Cabinet.

Her speech on Thursday where she pitted the people against parliament has been her last mistake. She's now a danger to the country's stability and the safety of MPs.

The priority for the week is to pass the SI to change the UK exit date from 29th March to the EU's new terms.

After that, with May's deal stuffed due to lack of support and a Bercow ruling it looks like we are facing some sort of indicative free vote. This seems to be being supported by ministers in government regardless of leave or remain.

The prospect of a Tory Leader Election contest looms. It remains to seen if that can happen in the next three weeks with so much else at stake. But this is the Tory party.

The penny seems to be finally dropping about the reality of leaving the EU and how we leave the EU. A week before we were due to go. The incompetence of Parliament is laid bare in all its glorious full scale.

OP posts:
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IrenetheQuaint · 23/03/2019 11:50

I am hoping that MPs can do more strategic thinking and organising over the next week than they've done in the last 2.5 years... But it's quite an ask.

Horehound · 23/03/2019 11:53

Pmk

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 11:53

Yes, the SI should be first, since it has such a tight deadline
It only takes about 90 minutes to do, but there is then a delay before it can apply

So I think Monday is the latest to stop Brexit happening on Friday
The BBC seem to think Tuesday might still be possible, but I'd like reliable confirmation of this

InterchangeableEmma · 23/03/2019 11:57

Hansard society mention Tuesday as the very, very latest moment. Here www.hansardsociety.org.uk/blog/changing-eu-exit-day-by-statutory-instrument

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 11:58

Keep Farage out: Weber wants no EU vote in UK

Manfred Weber is very influential
He is the EPP’s (centre right grouping) candidate for President of the EU Commission, Juncker's successor

I've heard that a lot here from other politicians too, that they are afraid of UK MEPs deliberately wrecking proceedings and trying to incite the far right

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-weber-idUKKCN1R31MP

“I cannot explain to anyone in Europe ... that a country which is leaving the EU has a big say in the future of the European Union.
That is not understandable for people.”

TheNorthWestPawsage · 23/03/2019 11:59

Pmk

InterchangeableEmma · 23/03/2019 12:00

Or I thought they did. Skimming through just now but can't find it

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 12:01

Thanks, Emma
I would be very nervous of MPs screwing up, or JRM finding some procedural trick to delay the SI past EOB for the day

Hence the SI should be put on Monday, unless there is some overwhelming reason not to do so, that I can't see

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/03/2019 12:01

PMK

countrygirl99 · 23/03/2019 12:03

I can't be on the March but I have emailed TM and my MP

TheMShip · 23/03/2019 12:05

I've manually tweaked the BBC flowchart to reflect the SI needing to come first and having an option for not voting on the WA at all. Though there are probably different steps along the two paths to 'MPs consider alternative options' depending on if the government drives that or if it's driven by the HoC.

Westminstenders: Pragmatism versus Purity
MissMalice · 23/03/2019 12:17

PMK

DGRossetti · 23/03/2019 12:23

.

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2019 12:49

Clarification of our status come 30th March.

Don't agree with the opinion on the thread, but do agree with points of law.

Note the importance of international law.

Henry Newman @henrynewman
There is some serious confusion about our EU exit date - see for example comments by @OwenPaterson and others

As a result of the decision of the European Council on Thursday/Friday the UK is no longer leaving the EU on 29 March

Here's why 👇

2) The Council agreed a flextension setting out two possible scenarios (depending on whether the deal had been approved or not by Parliament)

In either case the UK remains an EU member as a matter of international and European law on 30 March

3) Obviously there is the question of our domestic legal position which set out 29 March as a matter of UK law

However that is separate to any International commitments

4) Remember that this whole thing of 29 March being put in UK law was in part a demand of Brexiteers not something that actually mattered fundamentally to our international/EU position of whether we were or were not a member of EU

That was set by Article 50

5) Since the European Council reached agreement under Article 50 (3) the treaty law position is very clear.

The EU treaties will not cease to apply on March 30 - they still apply

6) If on 30 March the domestic law continues to read "29 March" for exit date, the result is not to make the UK a EU non-member. It doesn't make No Deal Brexit happen.

The result is instead domestic legal chaos & confusion, which Government & Parliament would have to mop up

7) Brexiteer critics of Theresa May tell us we couldn't just leave backstop as we would be breaking International Law

Putting aside whether we could or couldn't do that, same applies here

On March 30 the UK as matter of International & EU law is a member state not a 3rd country

8) Next week Government will seek to amend domestic law via statutory instrument to bring things into line with Council conclusion

As a matter of politics I think that will certainly pass with a strong majority - the Commons on 14 March already backed a longer extension 412/202

9) For weeks Brexiteers have been repeatedly told that our exit date was fixed at 29 March

This was wrong

It was always case that Council could change the date under Article 50 (3). And they will likely do so again if the deal doesn't pass

10) Have you ever been to a desert?

Where you can just almost sea a lake on the horizon - if only you can just walk over there

That's No Deal

A mirage on the horizon.

Impossible to rule out but almost certainly entirely elusive

11/11) Whatever Parliament votes to do, the international law position is that no deal Brexit cannot happen on 29 March

On 30 March we are still a member

Brexit is slipping away

Westminstenders: Pragmatism versus Purity
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DGRossetti · 23/03/2019 13:02

On March 30 the UK as matter of International & EU law is a member state not a 3rd country

So if UK law refutes that and people/companies are subject to criminal/civil penalties, they would have a route to the ECJ for redress ?

I really hope people haven't let their guard down. I suspect we'll be looking back in a few weeks with misty eyes at the calm of March ....

QueenOfThorns · 23/03/2019 13:05

Gah! Still being plagued by pop-ups Angry

Forgive me for not being too distraught at the prospect of Brexit slipping away. However, if I was an MP, I might be tempted to vote for cake if the cake in question was the Polish raspberry jaffa sort!

(I still think they’re biscuits, though)

HazardGhost · 23/03/2019 13:08

PMK - ta red

To everyone matching today I FUCKING LOVE YOU AND SHOUT A REVOKE FOR ME! Have lots of fun!

HazardGhost · 23/03/2019 13:09

Marching!*

OutwithMyRemit · 23/03/2019 13:10

Thanks Red

And thank you to everyone marching today!

NoWordForFluffy · 23/03/2019 13:20

I think Jaffa Cakes are legally cakes (something to do with VAT maybe).

Here you go: www.crunch.co.uk/knowledge/tax/cake-or-biscuit-vats-the-difference/

QueenOfThorns · 23/03/2019 13:24

I know they’re legally cakes. Doesn’t explain why they live in the biscuit aisle though, does it?

Horehound · 23/03/2019 13:25

Piers morgan Hmm

Westminstenders: Pragmatism versus Purity
BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2019 13:26

MN site survey

As red posted, we should fill this in

  • it is an opportunity to support the need for more Brexit discussion and counteract those who keep trying to have the topic more hidden

Where they asked for our choice of guests, I asked for Ivan Rogers, as he is the most expert Brit

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_surveys/3540235-MNHQ-here-take-our-survey-100-voucher-to-be-won

CaptainBrickbeard · 23/03/2019 13:29

I am baffled by Labour remaining so tone deaf on this. The tweet inviting people to the doorstepping event today, Corbyn in Morecambe...what on Earth are they thinking?

Tanith · 23/03/2019 13:31

I've heard that a lot here from other politicians too, that they are afraid of UK MEPs deliberately wrecking proceedings and trying to incite the far right

Wouldn’t the reverse be a possibility? That, by allowing the UK to vote in MEPs, the Far Right campaigning is diluted to include us?
We may well be so sick of Farage and his antics that we kick him and his grubs into touch, as we have 7 times already.
If we do elect Eurosceptic MEPs, then the EU gets rid of them when the UK leaves.

I agree the Far Right are a serious problem. I think they will try the same underhand tactics that worked so well for Brexit regardless of whether the UK votes or not. If they also have to campaign to keep the momentum going here, that’s less available resources for elsewhere in the EU.
We are, after all, something of a lost cause so they can leave the very p*ssed off citizens of the UK to do any extra campaigning.