Westminstenders: Neglectful Drunkeness!

[RedToothBrush]

The HoC has spend the past 3 years in a state of Neglectful Drunkeness.

As it stands less then two weeks from Brexit Day, there is no deal we were promised. The Conservative and Labour Parties are more divided than ever.

The government is in disarray as 8 Cabinet ministers plus the chief whip voted against the Prime Minister including the Brexit Secretary who had minutes earlier argued for an extension only to vote against it. He is now on the brink of resignation.

The DUP look like they may be about to capitulate and vote for a deal. But it may not be enough even then.

This is what the cliff edge looks like.

Who wants to take a closer look?

There is no reason why we couldn't change to a system of having more Referenda. You would hope Parliament did vote to bring in that change they would tighten up the rules as to what was allowed, how much spending was allowed, where the spending was allowed. So this would knock out the red bus and its £350 million a week, or stop someone giving money to the DUP which was then used to advertise a Leave point of view in London, where no one can vote for the DUP however much in agreement with them they are.

And on the legal point, a Parliament cannot bind its successors I have already agreed you are right. You seem however to expand from this constitutional point to assert that members of Parliament can therefore ignore the direct mandate that they themselves voted to give to the electorate. Again technically true, and a cynic might suggest this is what MPs are currently trying to do. That it is wholly illegitimate for them to do that is my point, that’s all.

bigly leadsom storming in corridors that she will suspend all standing orders to allow time for WA to go through.

Clerc - but at least the Hoc is capable of operating at a level far far quicker than the EU can ever do. Painful though it might be.

How many levels of governance does even the most minor level of detail of any change to EU legislation go through? How long does that take? How much legislation does the EP actually control - how long does it take for legislation to even get to the EP?

Given that the EU is far more and greater than the EP (the only elected part) who, what and how is it decided what legislation even gets to the EP stage and then what happens?

The Referendum result doesn't just warrant an explanation from Leavers why the UK system of governance is so good, let's also hear from EU 'commentators' such as yourself, why the EU syatem is better?

And this was bought up in house about half an hour ago.

So do I have this straight:
Parliament voted for a Referendum
Leave won
May triggered Article 50
We have no deal
Parliament had a (non binding) vote to never leave with a no deal
But we have no deal, no extension, no re-vote, no time for a renegotiation (which the EU say won't happen anyway)

It's fucking checkmate isn't it? Nowhere to turn, no moves that give us any chance of getting out of this with any sort of national future.

A referendum, if we must have one, needs to be between specific, realistic choices

People can vote to be able to live to 200 without wrinkles, pain or disease
but that doesn't man the govt or the HoC can actually achieve this

A PV for Remain vs WA is specific
so is Remain vs No Deal

The HoC has voted against both the WA and No Deal
and would probably vote against Remain if it was put to it

However, we can't yet have an SM referendum, because there is NO negotiated framework with the EU for this.
If the HoC want SM, then they have to drop FOM & ECJ and we need a long extension to renegotiate the PD.
Only then could we have an SM referendum.

Dr Liam Fox @ liamfox
BREAKING: Our negotiators have just initialled a trade agreement with Iceland & Norway for the European Economic Area. This is the 2nd biggest agreement we're rolling over and trade with EEA is worth nearly £30bn. This is on top of the agreement we’ve signed with Liechtenstein.

Is this called 'staying in the EEA' by another name?

Cos the timing is cracking.

Confirmed she IS trying to do just that. TM still going to try and present WA. I suspect that attorney general is going to try and veto Berkow. Also confirmed TM will not revoke. And attorney general veiled threat of closing down Parliament.

Omgithurts we have indeed painted ourselves into a political corner.

Surely you can't close down Parliament at this time????
It's too important a decision and it's meant to be decided by a minority government and an unelected Prime Minister?

That can't be right. That's an utterly undemocratic authoritarian precedent.

Sorry if this sounds silly, but didn't TM promise indicative votes last week? When are the next votes scheduled?

peregrina Switzerland has frequent referenda, but they are conducted very professionally
AND
the Swiss government can still decide they cannot / will not implement the results

e.g. as with FOM, which the people voted against, but the govt said would mean losing the EU trade benefits,
so they asked the people to reconsider in another referendum.

Referenda require a very well-informed electorate who are prepared to pay attention and study the facts,
plus
a system to run referenda fairly - and prevent manipulation by murky foreign or domestic zillionaire oligarchs

Referenda are very dangerous becaue they can be manipulated during critical times of social / economic upheaval.
The German Constitution - designed by the Allies - outlaws referenda because of how they helped Hitler's rise to power

I think it's only one viewpoint that it's wholly illegitimate. At long last the MPs appear to have woken up and are beginning to ask themselves 'What is for the good of the country?' If they are now in possession of more facts than they were two years ago (some are, some aren't) and they believe that it's no longer in the country's interest to Leave or certainly to crash out, then they have a duty to say so.

I think some of them, although they are not admitting it, have had a rude awakening. They really believed in the easiest deals in history and they need us more than we need them. They really didn't expect the rest of the EU to side with Ireland. They also thought that for Remainers Theresa May would be a safe pair of hands, and Leavers thought they could manipulate her. Both sides seemed to have misjudged this.

Hate Getting consensus always takes more time than just one Great Leader deciding

e.g. It is always quicker in a family if one person makes all the decisions, but it is much fairer if at least all the adults come to a consensus

George Eustice just asked about EFTA in Parliament. Well.

Why was he there?

Being offered a role of some sort?

Brian Tutt @tutt_brian

It's a good day to remember Bercow's timeless characterisation of Andrea Leadsom: "Anyone who knows the Leader of the House at all well will have not the slightest doubt about her political ability and her personal character." A classically English stiletto between the ribs...

Yep, he is jolly sensible. To echo an earlier poster, thank fuck she did not become PM

e.g. as with FOM, which the people voted against, but the govt said would mean losing the EU trade benefits, so they asked the people to reconsider in another referendum.

Indeed, and if anyone wishes to trawl back on these threads they will find Leavers crowing about how the EU would blink first. It didn't.

Italy I believe does not allow Referenda which affect international treaties, so neither of our EEC/EU Referenda would have been allowed.

Most MPS have been shockingly ignorant and arrogant

They have concentrated only on what is good for their career & their party and have ignored everything else

Now most are realising that their power to make law stops at the borders of the UK
and they can't vote to make the EU do as they are told, or over-write international law

A major reality check

Would Leasdom be able to cancel all standing orders? It would be political manouevering of the worst kind. It's also something which could come back to haunt them - the Tories won't be in power forever, and another administration would probably quite happily use the same dodgy behaviour if it suited them!

HateIsNotGood
I don't care any more, I'm only here for the cats.

Corbyn ponders leadership exit.

Really?

www.standard.co.uk/news/londoners-diary/the-londoner-corbyn-ponders-leadership-exit-a4094546.html

All along, Leavers have been claiming the EU would blink becasue ... cars / prosecco / they need us more ...

Boris is still claiming the EU will blink 🤦🏻‍♀️

That surely has to be just deliberate lying / posturing for the next Tory leadership contest

I don't see Cummins as a toad at all Peace but as someone who had a very good 'grasp' of political people in all their many guises as well as knowing how a lot of "things work" - an highly intelligent and capable person.

He had a grasp of how things work and how politicians work to a point

He is a toad because he knew this, and still thought it was a good idea to have a ref strategy which ignored both, because he naively thought magically a new vision for the future and a plan for how to do that would appear after the fact.

What he forgot, and this is rather crucial and ironic, was a grasp of how things work and how politicians work. He regarded MPs as stupid and set in their ways, but simultaneously expected them to be the Brexit visionaries too.

Thus he was both smart and incredibly stupid in seeing how he could subvert the institutions that run the country in the ref but be so shortsighted in failing to see this was going to leave a rather obvious collision course which this was going to lead to and how it would fuck the country.

It's a bit like promising to bake a chocolate cake, and promising it would be amazing as youve won competitions for the Queens next birthday, then remembering you've forgotten you are the world's worst cook who has never even made rice crispy cakes, you've no ingredients and you've got a vegan and someone with a dairy allergy to cater for and there's an international chocolate shortage on. But it's all going to be OK, cos everyone loves chocolate cake.