Why don't Brexiteers value the economy or peace above leaving?

[newnameyawn]

Although I firmly disagree, I can empathise with the reasons why some people voted Leave in the first referendum, but now we know more, WHY do they still support Brexit?

Every time the prospect of Brexit takes a tiny hit, the pound surges. We take a tiny step towards leaving and the pound crashes. Bank of England, CoC, and business all in agreement UK would be worse off outside EU. Why do Brexiteers want that?? I genuinely don't get why they would want their children and grand children to be worse off.

Also, why don't they care about peace in NI above leaving the EU? And why don't they care about the reasons the EU was formed after WW2 to prevent that ever happening again on the continent of Europe??

Good luck with your business venture @Millyonthe . I really mean that because small business growth is crucial for the country.

Thank you bellini. It's grown steadily for the last two decades and it should go on growing steadily for the foreseeable, because we provide something that people want and need.

Millyonthe
Thank you.
Have you been receiving the government 'preparedness' notices?
They have been issued at ever increasing rate over the last few days, I think about 50 arrived yesterday. Of course many are advice for living in individual countries so only 1 in 27 would be applicable for most. HoC may be stuck for ideas but the 'backroom staff' are fair motoring.
Not sure whether they are a great deal of help as the ones I have looked at seem quite woolly and are waiting for some real information.
Relevant to you may be registration for an IOER (can't remember the initials) number and there have been notices about VAT and tariffs.
With luck, your 'carriers' may be able to take some of the documentation load from you as I presume they have been gearing up as much as possible.
Getting 'real' with the changes that are happening is all important now.
Like Bellinisurge, I wish you the best of luck with your business.

Was it David Cameron's fault for agreeing to a referendum? If so can we blame Cameron's mother for giving birth to him?

Yes.

for politicians, I think none of them can admit how wrong they are so they'll just keep going. What's that called? Sunken opportunity cost? Twats.

I live in Sheffield, the referendum result here was 51% Leave - 49% Remain, closer than the national result. Yesterday it was announced that our council has agreed to take in 150 Romanian refugees, the majority of them are teenage girls who either are already pregnant or are at risk of getting pregnant under age. The Multi Agency Support Team in Sheffield gave a statement that they would be working with the council, education department & other agencies to get these refugees homes, places in schools & everything they need to start a new life in Sheffield. By last night there was talk of demonstrations & protests by the population of Sheffield, who are up in arms about this news, there are already 28,600 people on the housing register waiting for properties, the MAST teams are snowed under with referrals, it is taking up to 12 weeks to get allocated a MAST worker, schools are off loading children with special educational needs, who are already being failed by the education office by failing to fund places at specialist schools. My nephew has ASD & my brother & SIL had to go to tribunal last summer to get him a place at a school run by the Autistic Society, Sheffield Education refused to fund the school place despite every school they tried to send him to stating that their school was not suitable for him, it cost them over £20k for consultations with educational Psychologists & legal fees, they won at tribunal & my nephew is now well settled & happy in his specialist school after being failed by the education system until he was 11. If his parents had not been able to afford to go to tribunal, he would have carried on being failed for the rest of his school life. This is why people voted to leave, because they are being failed by their own country, yet refugees can just arrive & get money thrown at them, it's time we looked after our own people.

Leaving the EU doesn't nor will it prevent refugees from being housed in the UK, its a completely separate issue.....

100s of people come into the UK every week and claim asylum.... if successful they can stay in the UK.

Have you a link to this story?

This is why people voted to leave, because they are being failed by their own country,

No link it provided to the story upthread.

But the crux of the problem is yes done people are being failed by their country. However giving up unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers is not the way to ensure people will be served by their country.

Nat6999. I have a child with disabilities that will need a special school to meet her needs. Funding those schools should be a priority and it's fucking ridiculous that your sister had to spend £20k to make that happen. I am scared we will have to find similar amounts of money when the time comes.

But I come at this from a different angle - 1. the economy needs to be going well in order to fund public services and any recession will limit public spending even further and 2. The government and local councils are choosing how they spend money and they are not prioritising the disabled or dealing with housing issues - that can only change from internal pressure.

So from similar starting points I arrive at a completely different view to yours.
And that's before I've factored in keeping the peace in Northern Ireland.

That's why people are voting for change, they think it's the only way out of the mess this country is in. The government is failing the people it should be supporting & fighting for, failing the children & young people who are the future of our country, failing to give them the education they deserve, failing to fund the support services for SEN & places in specialist schools. Failing to provide care for the sick, disabled & elderly, cutting benefits & care budgets that enable them to lead independent lives, closing care & nursing homes & forcing elderly people to sell their homes & assets to fund their care. Failing to fund healthcare, closing hospitals & cutting clinics, failing people with cancer, making them wait longer for treatment & refusing to fund drug therapies that would give sufferers extra time, less pain & a better survival rate. All people can see are injustices & they have had enough.

Given that Romania is EU country, they don't generate a lot of refugees.

There is a Star article about Multi Agency Support Team" in Sheffield, that mentions pregnant Roma teenage girls. Many Roma are Romanian... many are not.

I can't find any info to say that there are 150 such pg teenage girls. Even if there were 150 such people, if there are 28,600 people on waiting list for council housing, what's another 0.52% ... how inhumane would it be to leave them on the streets.

Sheffield isn't even in the top 30 for teenage pregnancies in England.

Okayy OP - I'm not quite sure how you equate making a well-rationed decision to Leave the EU with an apparent view of the World that does not involve Peace.

As far as I know, no one in the UK nor the ROI wants a hard border; it's only an issue because it suits the EU to make it one. Maybe you are right and because the EU are making this one thing more problematic than it could be on that basis alone I should change my vote (which I can't do even if I wanted to, which I don't) to preserve a 'peace' that wasn't 'brokered' by the EU.

Maybe I should throw all of my other views and ethics on the fire too.

As far as I know about the EU's role in keeping the Peace on continental Europe, it probably has, but as the EU is so civilized now I'm sure they'll debate it loads if France and Germany and Czeck Rep et al decided to invade each other; they hardly need the UK in order to keep their Peace do they?

Is the EU really the great advisory institution that should be advising others on keeping the Peace?

They value putting in place a structure that they believe is right and will serve the country best in the long term over any noise or inconvenient practicalities that are caused in the process of getting to that place. They argue they are looking to safeguard the long term future and that there is a price to pay for that short term. Remainers have been spectacularly ineffective in convincing them otherwise because there are way too many unknowables in the equation and none of us have a crystal ball.

lljkk How inhumane is it to leave people who are born & bred in Sheffield without homes, their children not getting school places or the support they need & let people not even from the city jump the queue? It's time we looked after our own.

There should be enough kindness to go around, enough for both Your Own and a little to share.

It is Your Own. For sure I am not in Nat6999's tribe. You'd be happy to see me homeless on the street if it meant one of Your Own got what you think they should have.

There should be enough kindness to go around, enough for both Your Own and a little to share.

Currently, social housing is, unfortunately, a zero sum game (in the short term, there is the possibility over the long term to purchase/build more). I don't even get the impression that Nat6999 is being tribal/xenophobic but rather wants the concept of everyone having a fair place in the queue to be preserved.

Perhaps you could put your accommodation where your keyboard is and take in some needy people? One or two people shouldn't hurt, you could put a bed in your living room or kitchen and sleep there.

Time we looked after our own?

Ok time to really try and understand this properly.

EU migrants look after ' our own' more than those born in the U.K.

EU Migrants contribute £2,300 more each per annum to UK public finances than other U.K. residents. This includes NHS funding and adult social care etc.

For EU13+ migrants their contribution is £3,700 per capita higher each, per annum to the public finances than the average UK adult. ( EU13+ are the EU members before 2004 plus EEA members plus Switzerland. )

We simply look after 'our own' better with EU migration.

The reason why the NHS has struggled is because of underfunding by successive governments.

Gronky Thank you for seeing my point of view. It's not about being racist or xenophobic, I don't think we should need help from other nations, I just think we should provide for our own & help our own. I was brought up to believe that we should look after, respect & care for our own. My parents cared for my grandparents, myself & my brother cared for my dad until he passed away & now care for our mum. My parents & grandparents worked all their lives & provided for themselves & for us. My parents always helped neighbours & now neighbours help my mum. That's the way it should be.

Because people have been convinced we're pussywhipped by the EU and if it wasn't for that meddling Human Rights stuff we'd be sending foreign criminals back home (we won't even when we leave) and... I dunno, losing those pesky workers' rights because they think low economic productivity means people are being allowed to be lazy and obviously making them more miserable and in thrall to their employers will make them 'more productive'.

Chances are we'll stay in line with EU rules on almost everything (we'll probably have to for various reasons) but ho hum.

Some of the comments on this thread seem to ignore the fact that long before the EU the British empire and then air travel all contributed to international globalisation. What counts as our own?

I'll list some of my friends and family, politicians and some royals :

Me: 1/2 EU Irish ( that's EU) 1/2 Yorkshire. Am I our own?

My old neighbour , a consultant hospital doctor: She was born here to 1 UK born parent - 1 parent German but living here for 60 years? Carries German passport Is she our own?

My DH - Welsh descent on both sides but is told he looks Turkish. One adult DD by a previous relationship with an Aussie but born here. Which of them
Are our own?

My other friend (another very senior hospital consultant) working in Great Ormond street as it happens born in Romania.She's the higher rate tax payer and bread winner - Married to a U.K. born unwell DH who can't work. Romanian born children. Which of this family are our own?

My old work colleague . Third generation of Pakistani descent. Her grandparents were born in India but from when Pakistan was part of India. So therefore part of the British Empire- and all family members given British nationality way back when married to a Swiss DH. Are they our own?

The Queen-Of German descent doesn't use real surname of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and only switched to Windsor ( maned after the Castle) in 1917. Is she our own?

Prince Philip -born in Greece member of Greek and Danish royal families.Family was exiled as a child educated in France, Germany and here. Is he our own?

Nigel Farage -Great-grandfather Carl Schrod -German immigrant cabinet makers came to London. First wife Irish ( EU ) Gráinne Hayes, with two half Irish children.Other Ex wife Kirsten Mehr German too with two bi lingual children with British and German passports. Which of this family are our own.

EU Migrants contribute £2,300 more each per annum to UK public finances than other U.K. residents.This includes NHS funding and adult social care etc.

Point to note - those (average) figures are based on EU migrants who arrive as young adults and return home before they reach retirement age. If they receive state education in the UK, or extra healthcare in their old age - their average net contribution/cost to the state was the same as the rest of us.

The figures are based on an extensive government study of all EU migrants compared to native borns. All proper studies (LSE,ONS,OECD) show the same thing. EU migrants were net contributors.

If posters want to object to immigration on the grounds of feelings then just be honest.

Objections to EU immigration on grounds of economics or resources are flawed; those arguments are disproven time and time again.

(Today of all days we should not be afraid to question posts that air anti immigrant views.)

Is no one going to explain who 'our own' are?

Lonelyplanetmum all the people you speak of have got a place in our society because they have integrated themselves & given more than they have taken & worked to make a place in the communities they live in. The Roma community in Sheffield have created an area that now is a virtual no go area, even the police don't want to go there. The streets they live in are covered with rubbish, as they refuse to use bins. Their children won't attend school, the crime rate is through the roof, there have been reports of teenagers having sex in the street. People in surrounding areas are living in fear, burglary, car crime, muggings & assaults are happening daily. The area they occupy is next to the main hospital in Sheffield, people who travel on public transport are terrified, there isn't a day goes by without a police incident in the area. I travelled through the area to take DS to visit his dad in hospital at night, I was scared stiff, a police crew had gone to arrest a Roma resident on one of the streets I drove through, there were people flocking to surround the police car with lumps of wood & baseball bats, by the time we came back, the police car had been overturned & smashed up, riot vans had closed off the road, I saw police with batons & riot shields. That's an example of one night, why should we give these people a home when they have no intention of becoming part of society?

The figures are based on an extensive government study of all EU migrants compared to native borns. All proper studies (LSE,ONS,OECD) show the same thing. EU migrants were net contributors.

You can read the report which produced the £2300 figure here:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759376/The_Fiscal_Impact_of_Immigration_on_the_UK.pdf